I have 2nd level Nagaji Bloodrager 1 / Sorcerer 1. He thinks he is the Prince and Avatar of the copper dragons somehow trapped in a humanoid shape. I wanted to use Wyveran for the race, but the Dragon Disciple prestige class specifically says you can't be a draconic race (which seems pretty stupid to me). The GM will still allow me to adjust it a bit if desired.
I know this is no where near a 'power gamer' build, but we were specifically requested to make fairly bizarre characters with a potential weakness. This one is as about as bizarre as I could come up with and still be playable. I experimented around with a few mock combats at various levels and it actually performs a bit better than might be expected.
Plan is for the next 3 level to be bloodrager then all 10 of Dragon Disciple. Not sure after that (if we even get that far).
We are using hero points, background skills, and VMC is allowed. Though the GM really didn't think anyone would really be dumb enough to take VMC. Ha!
So I dumped wisdom completely and took VMC oracle with the shattered mind curse to help out with the most important saves.
I was planning to use most of the rest of my feats for the Eldritch Heritage line of feats with the Shadow bloodline. But know I'm very seriously considering ditching the Eldritch Heritage for all of the Hero Point feats.
Generally intend to do most of the fighting with claws (and eventual bite).
What do you think of this so far? Anything you would change?
This is for the Strange Aeons AP if it makes any difference to your answers. But please don't give me any spoilers. The sense of mystery and surprise are most of the hook for me with this campaign.
Male nagaji bloodrager (rageshaper) 1/sorcerer 1/oracle* (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15, 84, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 4 199)
CG Medium humanoid (reptilian)
Hero Points 2
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +3
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 19 (2 HD; 1d6+1d10+5)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +0; +4 competence bonus vs. mind-affecting effects, +2 vs. mind-affecting effects and poison
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee improvised adamantine greatclub +1 (1d10+4)
Ranged greenwood composite longbow +4 (1d8+3/×3)
Special Attacks bloodrage (6 rounds/day), claws, claws (2, 1d4, 6 rounds/day)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 2nd; concentration +3)
. . 1st (4/day)—endure elements, true strike
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13), light
. . Bloodline Draconic, Draconic
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Statistics
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Str 17, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 16
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Eschew Materials, Skill Focus (Stealth)
Traits blood of dragons, magical knack, twitchy
Skills Acrobatics +4 (+8 to jump), Appraise -2, Climb +5, Heal -4, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (engineering) +2, Linguistics -1, Perception +3, Sense Motive -4, Sleight of Hand +2, Stealth +4, Survival -4; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Nagaji
SQ bloodline arcana (energy spells that match bloodline energy deal +1 damage per die), fast movement, hero points, mystery (battle), oracle's curse (shattered psyche), paranoid, resistant, serpent's sense
Combat Gear potion of infernal healing, holy water, oil; Other Gear lamellar (leather) armor[UC], greenwood composite longbow (+3 Str) with 20 arrows, improvised adamantine greatclub, backpack, bandolier[UE], belt pouch, candle, earplugs[APG], fishhook, flint and steel, grappling hook, hemp rope (50 ft.), signal whistle, soap, string or twine[APG], torch (3), trail rations (3), waterskin, whetstone, 3 gp, 8 sp, 9 cp
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Special Abilities
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Bloodline Arcana: Draconic (Ex) +1 damage per die for [Acid] spells.
Bloodrage (6 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Claws (6 rounds/day) (Su) 2 Claw atacks deal 1d4 damage
Claws (Ex) 2 Claw attacks deal 1d6 damage
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Paranoid Aid Another DC 15 for attempts to help you.
Resistant (Ex) +2 racial bonus to saves vs. mind-affecting effects and poison.
Serpent's Sense (Ex) +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks against reptiles.
Shattered Psyche Your mind is crowded with dozens of voices, fragmented snippets of your past lives. You take a -2 penalty on all Intelligence-based skill checks, Wisdom-based skill checks, and concentration checks. You gain a +4 competence bonus on saving throws mad
What is with the Sorcerer dip?
I feel you would be much stronger just being a bloodrager into DD without dipping into Sorcerer.
The VMC I can understand but no need to dump your Wisdom that low when all you need is a 12 CHA to start and get a headband. Very little reason to dump Wisdom and very little reason to start with a 16 cha.
Everything else is fine looking. I could share my Dragon Disciple/ Bloodrager if you would like to glean from it. I always love looking at builds and finding inspiration from them.
If the build is intended to primarily use natural attacks then dipping sorceror is no biggo as you don't need BAB as much when using natural attacks. And level 1 sorceror casting is more or less equivalent to 5 levels of bloodrager castings (xcept for caster level).
I totally gree on the 7 WIS. Basically it's always wrong to dump Wisdom as 2 of your most vital roles in the game are dependent on WIS. However I wasn't able to find the shattered mind curse. Where is that from?
I could share my Dragon Disciple/ Bloodrager if you would like to glean from it. I always love looking at builds and finding inspiration from them.
I'm working on a Bloodrager/DD at the moment and would like seeing your build if you don't mind sharing it. Thanks!
I could share my Dragon Disciple/ Bloodrager if you would like to glean from it. I always love looking at builds and finding inspiration from them.I'm working on a Bloodrager/DD at the moment and would like seeing your build if you don't mind sharing it. Thanks!
The Coup-de-grace Killer
Archetype:(Optional) Steel blooded
Race: Human
Alternative Racial: Focused Study
Point Buy:
Str: 19, Dex: 12, Con: 15, Int: 7, Wis: 10, Cha: 12 (+1 to Con @ 4 and rest +1 STR)
Traits:
Community Minded
Dangerously Curious
Bloodline:
Draconic (Pick an Element you Like...I recommend Fire or Lightning as you can get Deliquescent Gloves for Acid Damage to your unarmed attacks.)
Bloodrager 7/Dragon Disciple 8/Bloodrager 5
Feats:
Human: Skill Focus- Stealth (Covers a Prereq)
1 HD: Power Attack, but retrain to Arcane Strike at level 5.
3 HD: Raging Vitality (Boosts Con for Paralyze DC)
5 HD: Eldritch Heritage- Ghoul (Claws) ((Level 7 Paralyze on Claws))
6 HD (Bloodline): Power Attack
7 HD: Cornugon Smash (-2 to saves...with cruel…-4 on saves)
Human 8: Skill Focus- Intimidate
9 HD: Iron Will
9 HD (Bloodline): Toughness, Improved Initiative, or Blind-Fight
11 HD: Improved Eldritch Heritage- Ravenous Frenzy (Haste...YES!!!)
12 HD (Bloodline): Toughness, Improved Initiative, or Blind-Fight
13 HD: Bloodied Arcane Strike
15 HD: Raging Brutality
15 HD (Bloodline): Toughness, Improved Initiative, or Blind-Fight
I kept it PFS the best I can. If you can use Primialist...then use it for Pounce and Come and get me of course. If you can use Monster Feat you might consider Acid Element and Noxious Bite as well. I know I did think about it but not being PFS legal I was trying to make it so just about anyone can use it.
A Sorcerer dip means that DD levels grant casting from a 9-level casting class instead of a 4-level one. A Bloodrager 5/ DD 10 has 2/1/1 spells per day; a Bloodrager 4/ Sorcerer 1/ DD 10 has 6/6/5/3.
A Sorcerer dip means that DD levels grant casting from a 9-level casting class instead of a 4-level one. A Bloodrager 5/ DD 10 has 2/1/1 spells per day; a Bloodrager 4/ Sorcerer 1/ DD 10 has 6/6/5/3.
I tend to only take 8 DD levels but I guess it does add to the casting ability and bigger list to choose from and UMD as a skill and full access via Sorcerer.
Interesting to say the least. I always am concerned more about how hard (& Often) I'm hitting verses spells since they are usually all buffs. My style of Play favors long duration buffs and using a extend rod on the minutes per level buffs.
I have 2nd level Nagaji Bloodrager 1 / Sorcerer 1. He thinks he is the Prince and Avatar of the copper dragons somehow trapped in a humanoid shape. I wanted to use Wyveran for the race, but the Dragon Disciple prestige class specifically says you can't be a draconic race (which seems pretty stupid to me). The GM will still allow me to adjust it a bit if desired.
I know this is no where near a 'power gamer' build, but we were specifically requested to make fairly bizarre characters with a potential weakness. This one is as about as bizarre as I could come up with and still be playable. I experimented around with a few mock combats at various levels and it actually performs a bit better than might be expected.
Plan is for the next 3 level to be bloodrager then all 10 of Dragon Disciple. Not sure after that (if we even get that far).
We are using hero points, background skills, and VMC is allowed. Though the GM really didn't think anyone would really be dumb enough to take VMC. Ha!
So I dumped wisdom completely and took VMC oracle with the shattered mind curse to help out with the most important saves.
I was planning to use most of the rest of my feats for the Eldritch Heritage line of feats with the Shadow bloodline. But know I'm very seriously considering ditching the Eldritch Heritage for all of the Hero Point feats.
Generally intend to do most of the fighting with claws (and eventual bite).
What do you think of this so far? Anything you would change?This is for the Strange Aeons AP if it makes any difference to your answers. But please don't give me any spoilers. The sense of mystery and surprise are most of the hook for me with this campaign.
** spoiler omitted **...
As others have said, the Sorcerer level isn't worth it if you plan to wade into melee, since you get less HP, BAB, and you are restricted from using armor for casting their spells. The Bloodline benefits won't stack either, and nor would your caster level.
The Charisma amount is too high, and you don't want crap Wisdom; poor Will Saves combined with a dumped Wisdom = Dominated to fight your friends every fight. Even inoptimized, allies facing a charmed party member makes encounters infinitely harder than necessary. Also, it's Strange Aeons, an AP known for Cthulhu influences; think about that for a moment, and you'll see how having bad Will Saves is a very compromising issue.
I don't know how far Strange Aeons takes you, but DD levels past 4 aren't worth the loss of Bloodrager features, and even 4 levels of DD is pushing it, though it makes you better defensively (more A.C. and HP) at the cost of offense (Bloodrage progression).
Sorry mis-named it, the curse is called Shattered Psyche from Iron Gods.
1st level - Gives a +4 competence bonus on mind affecting saving throws. This is more of a benefit than the dumped wisdom is a hindrance.
5th level - Immune to charm
10th level - Immune to compulsion
Wisdom - Charisma issue. My thinking was that the curse would offset most (not all) of the problems with having a low wisdom. Nagaji have a bonus to charisma and strength, so lowering the charisma to 14 would only get me 1 point of strength or 2 points of wisdom. I'm mostly planning on buff or utility spells with him, so I could do that.
The sorc dip costs me one point of BaB, 2 hit points, 2 rounds of bloodrage. In return I get much better spell casting with the Dragon Disciple levels of casting and Magical Knack (sorc), +2 to will saves, and the bloodline powers of a draconic sorcerer in addition to a draconic bloodrager. To me that seems like a more than fair trade.
So I can use claws even when not bloodraging (for a little while).
My only really used spell right now is True Strike which has no somatic component, so can be cast in armor. Eventually I will either get mithral chain shirt or replace the armor with Mage Armor and Shield spells.
That was my thinking anyhow.
A huge increase in spellcasting means that spells like Heroism, Blade Tutor's Spirit, Monstrous Physique, Haste, Contagious Zeal, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, False Life, and so on become easy to use instead of rare or impossible, which makes having a little bit of extra HP and a point or two of BAB seem pretty irrelevant by comparison.
Sorry mis-named it, the curse is called Shattered Psyche from Iron Gods.
1st level - Gives a +4 competence bonus on mind affecting saving throws. This is more of a benefit than the dumped wisdom is a hindrance.
5th level - Immune to charm
10th level - Immune to compulsionWisdom - Charisma issue. My thinking was that the curse would offset most (not all) of the problems with having a low wisdom. Nagaji have a bonus to charisma and strength, so lowering the charisma to 14 would only get me 1 point of strength or 2 points of wisdom. I'm mostly planning on buff or utility spells with him, so I could do that.
The sorc dip costs me one point of BaB, 2 hit points, 2 rounds of bloodrage. In return I get much better spell casting with the Dragon Disciple levels of casting and Magical Knack (sorc), +2 to will saves, and the bloodline powers of a draconic sorcerer in addition to a draconic bloodrager. To me that seems like a more than fair trade.
So I can use claws even when not bloodraging (for a little while).
My only really used spell right now is True Strike which has no somatic component, so can be cast in armor. Eventually I will either get mithral chain shirt or replace the armor with Mage Armor and Shield spells.That was my thinking anyhow.
Didn't know about the curse. Since you'll be immune to 90% of Will Saves (the other 10% being Channel Negative Energy and Illusions, both of which are meh), then dumping Wisdom won't be so bad.
I do think lowering Charisma to 14 would be the smarter thing to do, since any higher will only get you Bonus Spells (which isn't bad, but not the greatest use of one's beginning attributes when he can't even realistically cast higher level spells yet) and higher Save DCs (which you won't need for the spells you're wanting to specialize in). Even if you don't want to pump up your Strength, you can shore up some more Constitution or Dexterity for better HP/AC. Or even Intelligence for Skill Points (you don't get too many with this route/PrC).
Depends on how many levels you go into DD for the Sorcerer dip. If the full 10, it might be worthwhile, but I will say again that if you wanted to be a melee DD, that the spells will primarily only be for utility and/or out-of-combat purposes, unless you want to pump your Charisma to the stratosphere and take a dip into Scaled Fist Monk, getting Charisma to AC, because dealing with Arcane Spell Failure while wearing heavier armor is not a smart thing to do in combat, and can get you killed.
I'd suggest you check with your GM to see whether the Dragon Disciple Blood of Dragons ability lets you enhance both bloodlines or just one, since that ability was written before you could gain multiple bloodlines (or even multiples types of the same sort of bloodline), meaning it probably wasn't intended to enhance more than one bloodline at any given time.
Keep in mind that just because you can only use your claws in a bloodrage that it doesn't mean you can't use other weapons in the meantime. You do have full Martial and Simple Weapon Proficiency. You'll need to carry some utility weapons for ranged combat, especially in early levels where flight is inaccessible, so don't expect every situation to be clawed through.
Also, True Strike only works for one attack, once per round, and requires a round of prep-time (because it takes a Standard Action to apply it) for it to work. Unless you get to Quicken it for free between levels 1-5, it's horrible action economy, really only useful for pre-buffing for a hard-to-attempt attack (such as combat maneuvers you're bad at). Being a Natural Weapons enthusiast (which means no iterative suffering) and 7/8 BAB means you shouldn't have to butcher your Full Attack action economy to gain that bonus. I'd instead focus on spells that might give you extra natural attacks (if they're available), since you can use them in conjunction with what you already have and give yourself even more power.
As an added bonus, I suggest you take the Rageshaper archetype for Bloodrager, since it boosts your natural attacks similar to the Improved Natural Attack feat, and it applies to all of your Bloodrage abilities (including the Bite from Dragon Disciple).
I will be taking all 10 of DD.
He is a rage shaper.
There are some extremely nice sorc buffs spells.
I believe it was posted in one of the faqs that DD would advance both bloodlines, though I haven't found it just now and I have to get ready for work. I may try to locate it tomorrow. But that is reasonable, I will double check with the GM to make sure he is ok with it.
Yes he has a composite str longbow (or will have when he catches up to the guy that stole it). He is also gathering a few melee weapons off of fallen foes to use when the claws and raging run out.
True Strike is basically useful since we have encountered a few really high AC foes already. Raging claws and I was needing to roll a 18+ to hit. A couple of true strikes with a 2HW would have been more efficient. Also there is a guy I really want to grapple and question without harming him too much.
Like I said by the time I have more spells, I should either have mithral breastplate or chain shirt (small % failure) or i just may be relying on mage armor and other defensive buff spells.
A huge increase in spellcasting means that spells like Heroism, Blade Tutor's Spirit, Monstrous Physique, Haste, Contagious Zeal, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, False Life, and so on become easy to use instead of rare or impossible, which makes having a little bit of extra HP and a point or two of BAB seem pretty irrelevant by comparison.
Several of those spells are already on the Bloodrager spell list, so it's not like going Sorcerer gives him those spells if we're throwing DD into the mix. That's not including bonus spells, which may include options not available on the Bloodrager spell list.
Blade Tutor's is nice, but not needed since he is going the Natural Weapon route, meaning his overall attack bonus between his attacks is generally higher and more likely to hit in the higher levels. I also believe the spell was created before Bloodrager was a class, and it was introduced via a splatbook.
Contagious Zeal is good, but it doesn't stack with Heroism, and its duration is infinitely shorter, even if it affects others.
Greater Invisibility has combat potential, and is perhaps the only spell among that list worth having compared to existing options. But Greater Invisibility doesn't trump class features.
False Life isn't really needed, especially with D12 Hit Dice from DD, the D10 Hit Dice from Bloodrager, as well as Bloodrage and feats like Raging Vitality.
I will be taking all 10 of DD.
He is a rage shaper.There are some extremely nice sorc buffs spells.
I believe it was posted in one of the faqs that DD would advance both bloodlines, though I haven't found it just now and I have to get ready for work. I may try to locate it tomorrow. But that is reasonable, I will double check with the GM to make sure he is ok with it.
Yes he has a composite str longbow (or will have when he catches up to the guy that stole it). He is also gathering a few melee weapons off of fallen foes to use when the claws and raging run out.
True Strike is basically useful since we have encountered a few really high AC foes already. Raging claws and I was needing to roll a 18+ to hit. A couple of true strikes with a 2HW would have been more efficient. Also there is a guy I really want to grapple and question without harming him too much.
Like I said by the time I have more spells, I should either have mithral breastplate or chain shirt (small % failure) or i just may be relying on mage armor and other defensive buff spells.
I know of that FAQ. The FAQ only says DD may also advance Draconic Bloodrager Bloodlines as well. It doesn't say anything about advancing multiple bloodlines simultaneously, which as I've said before, the feature was written well before it was possible to have multiple (versions of) bloodlines, so the odds of it doing so is highly unlikely. But, if the GM allows it, more power to ya.
A huge increase in spellcasting means that spells like Heroism, Blade Tutor's Spirit, Monstrous Physique, Haste, Contagious Zeal, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, False Life, and so on become easy to use instead of rare or impossible, which makes having a little bit of extra HP and a point or two of BAB seem pretty irrelevant by comparison.Several of those spells are already on the Bloodrager spell list, so it's not like going Sorcerer gives him those spells if we're throwing DD into the mix. That's not including bonus spells, which may include options not available on the Bloodrager spell list.
False Life isn't really needed, especially with D12 Hit Dice from DD, the D10 Hit Dice from Bloodrager, as well as Bloodrage and feats like Raging Vitality.
Bloodrager and Sorcerer both get Heroism; Bloodrager casting gets a base 1/day level 3 spell at level 10. Sorcerer casting gets a base 3/day level 3 spells at level 6 (and by 10, they have a base 6 level 3s, 5 level 4s and 3 level 5s). So the spell being on both lists isn't really the end of the story. Throw in the fact that a character might really want to be casting Monstrous Physique: Gargoyle multiple times as well as Heroism, and the benefits of vastly improved spell-power are pretty apparent. I mentioned False Life because someone mentioned lost hp.
The issue with Dragon Disciple is that Dragon Disciple levels swing wildly in power depending on what spellcasting class they're emulating. A Dragon Disciple level that grants spellcasting from a 4-level-caster class is far, far weaker than a Dragon Disciple level that grants spellcasting from a 9-level-caster one.
That being said, going with a single level of Sorcerer is a very poor start to casting levels, so the difference plays out much more slowly than if one were to go with more Sorcerer to begin with.
Yes, Sorcerers get more spell power, but the big thing with Sorcerer casting is that you can't reliably do so in (heavier) armor, which is a major disadvantage of Sorcerer spells versus Bloodrager spells. If those spells are failing due to ASF (even 15% via Mithril Breastplate is a concern), then those are turns that you are wasting instead of simply full attacking with Natural Weapons via Bloodraging.
Which I agree with, which is why I said that Bloodrager should be going no more than 4 levels into Dragon Disciple, because they lose out on too many class features/progression and don't really get anything more beneficial beyond 5th level that Bloodrager levels don't accomplish.
Gambling with ASF is obviously not a good idea. One level of Arcane Armor Training is enough to use a mithral Kikko without issues, which when crossed with Draconic AC bonuses is quite solid.