| Darkild |
Hey everyone
Great adventure path. My group has just finished burnt offerings and we had a great time playing it.
I am a bit at a loss with money matters and could use some help.
1. What is the monthly salary for a working class citizen in sandpoint and magnimar?
2. What would be the monthly salary for a town guard in sandpoint?
3. What percentage would you set the tax rate in sandpoint?
4. A business like the glassworks, how much would money does it make, and how much would the running costs be?
5. How much money does and in inn Sandpoint make?
| Cynge |
A quick and easy method to figure it out would be to use the information below from the Core Rulebook (or the PRD).
From the PRD's GameMastering Section
Cost of Living
An adventurer's primary source of income is treasure, and his primary purchases are tools and items he needs to continue adventuring—spell components, weapons, magic items, potions, and the like. Yet what about things like food? Rent? Taxes? Bribes? Idle purchases?You can certainly handle these minor expenditures in detail during play, but tracking every time a PC pays for a room, buys water, or pays a gate tax can swiftly become obnoxious and tiresome. If you're not really into tracking these minor costs of living, you can choose to simply ignore these small payments. A more realistic and easier-to-use method is to have PCs pay a recurring cost of living tax. At the start of every game month, a PC must pay an amount of gold equal to the lifestyle bracket he wishes to live in—if he can't afford his desired bracket, he drops down to the first one he can afford.
Destitute (0 gp/month): The PC is homeless and lives in the wilderness or on the streets. A destitute character must track every purchase, and may need to resort to Survival checks or theft to feed himself.
Poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.
Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.
Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.
Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.
Figure out at what level you would want a particular individual to live at (it has recommendations listed)...that gives you monthly expenses. Then figure that their income would likely be slightly more than the listed amount so they have money for the odd expense.
So let's do this for a Sandpoint Guard.
A guard in Sandpoint, for example might be in the Poor (in my campaign, the town guard doesn't even have armor until post-raid) category so it costs them 3gp/month to live. They might make 4gp (or less) in a month allowing for an extra expense of roughly 1gp per month. Several of the guards are probably younger, or perhaps relatively new to town, so most might share a common room of a tavern.
One or two long time guards (they were around for Chopper for example) fall into the Average category in terms of their cost of living, but that's because they have spouse or children that help with monthly expenses. These guards could possibly make a bit more than a regular guard for their time of service...maybe 4.5 to 5gp a month.
Sheriff Hemlock would likely fall into the Average category, and depending on how you want your campaign to run could either support this lifestyle on his own (making right around the 10gp month in salary) or be very close (8gp?) with the remaining income supplemented by his spouse.
Do the same for the Glassworks by figuring that Lonjiku probably falls just above Extravagant (AP says Kaijitsu manor is smallest but the Kaijitsu's are the richest). I might put him at 1100gp lifestyle. That would mean that Glassworks would have to make a profit per month of 1100gp (or more). The AP says that Lonjiku had 8 skilled laborers working for him that lived at the Glassworks. I'd put all 8 of them at Average lifestyle and get paid in the range of 12-15gp per month so 96 to 120gp per month in expense for Lonjiku there. Figuring out cost of product is harder...but again the AP says most of the components are found in abundance nearby (and would be fairly free) so I'd put maybe a dozen Poor commoners at Lonjiku's disposal that gather materials (sand, seaweed and lime) so that's another 36 to 50gp per month for labor (up to a max of 170gp month in labor) and we'll say other misc. expenses probably bring that total closer to the 500gp range...so the glassworks would have to bring in 1600gp per month to pay it's expenses and support the Kaijitsu lifestyle.
Adjust the numbers as you feel is fitting your campaign...maybe an aristocrat in Sandpoint doesn't quite fit into the Extravagant lifestyle so Kaijitsu would be lower. If you feel 500gp in expenses is too much in expenses...lower it.
As for Magnimar...I'd say the average aristocrat in Magnimar is probably at Kaijitsu's level with a few of the more successful ones even higher. You might still see the average guard be in the poor category, but they're monthly salary would be closer to average and you're likely to see more experienced (and higher paid) guards there so instead of one or two being average you might see roughly half (it is a bigger city after all). Magnimar's size doesn't necessarily mean that any one individual is going to make more than an individual in Sandpoint...it just means the population is more diversified and opportunity is greater (while there may be more Kaijitsu level aristocrats and higher...there are also quite a few more destitute level).
This is how I would do it for my campaign...rather than try to figure out specific numbers...figure out what lifestyle you'd want a particular job to put people at and work from there. No need to know that taxes in Sandpoint is x%...just figure out a lump sum cost of expense and move on. Only break down the things you have to.
An even easier, less detailed, way to do it would be to just assign a monthly income level to NPC classes (campaign wide). Aristocrat might net 400gp per month while Expert nets 15gp, Commoner 5gp. Lonjiku Kaijitsu then earns 1230gp per month (Aristocrat 3, Expert 2). His income + workers income + artificial_percentage = Glassworks Income. Bigger cities might have higher level NPC classes. That method would mean the General Store would have an income of 78gp...Ven (Commoner 7) Solsta (Commoner 4), Katrine (Commoner 1) and Shayliss (Commoner 1) all work there...so that's 13 * 5gp for 65gp, that 65 * 20% expense = 78gp income.
So that turned into a longer post than I expected...
| Stazamos |
I'm with Skeld - context is important. If you're trying to simulate an economy and the player's don't care, the effort will be wasted. If it's the other way around, be warned that this could devolve into a severe derailment where everyone runs an inn (my group apparently did this in Council of Thieves, causing that game to get ruined, before I joined them [though it was a tavern, not an inn]). Look at it this way: at level 10, the sale of a single magic item could go towards significantly upgrading the safety, security, and comfort of everyone in Sandpoint. Running the glassworks is peanuts compared to that.
It's somewhat of a problem with me, but I like speculating with little information, so here's a proper full answer anyway!
1. Blue collar salary in Sandpoint:
Entry level: 28 gp/month
Intermediate: 34 gp/month
Advanced: 40 gp/month
Method: commoner 1, commoner 4, commoner 7 with full ranks in a Profession skill, averaging 10 on the rolls (or taking 10).
For Magnimar, I'd make it easier for someone to get more experience quickly, and be more focused/specialized, where someone in Sandpoint might know a couple trades just a little bit. Also, I'd even say that there's no taking 10 in Sandpoint, where that would be possible in Magnimar (representing the steadiness of the work). This is for NPCs, of course. I wouldn't restrict taking 10 for PCs.
This might seem like a lot of wages, but keep in mind this is the type of society where you have a single breadwinnner per household, and a tendency to have several children. Sandpoint isn't statted up that way (it has nuclear families and small families, mainly), but it really should be, IMO. I also really suspect that the quality of life in Sandpoint is pretty good (as opposed to some slum in Magnimar), so rents would be around the 10 gp/month area. Perhaps a little lower.
2. Town guard in Sandpoint: see entry level or intermediate.
3. Tax rate: I'd go with 10%. I have extremely little economics experience, and stretching this to a fantasy society makes this even harder, so I just like easy numbers, and 10% is one of the easiest to deal with.
For 4-5, refer to Cynge's post!
| Darkild |
Sorry for not replying earlier, life got in the way and i completely forgot about starting this thread.
Anyhow...i was GM'ing again this weekend and i needed this information which reminded me of the thread i started :)
I got the answers i needed from your replies.
Thanks for taking your time answering my questions.
As to why i needed this information:
I wanted to be able to explain about ingame money to my players(and to better understand it myself), both in character and out of character, give them something to compare against.
When someone offers the group 50 GP or 2000 GP to do something, how do you/they know if it's enough or not.
From a GM perspective, understanding ingame money better makes it easier for me to portray the right reaction from an NPC when and if PCs ask for more money to do something, or when a PC tries to buy unusual items or haggle prices.
There was more to my questions than the above(taxes, business income), but clarifying that would take some time for me, so i'll skip it.
I got the answers i needed. Thank you.
Misroi
|
Ah, that makes sense now. Not a bad question - some characters will want to know just how good of a deal they're getting, and without putting a price on things, it's hard to do so. I think that quantifying it against how much any given citizen of Sandpoint or Magnimar makes isn't the way to go about it though. The wealth by level tables aren't weighed against commoners, but against the sorts of foes PCs would be going up against, and the sort of equipment they expect PCs should have in order to face them. After about 2nd level, the amount of money your character will be making far outstrips most normal professions to the point where it's laughable.
Really, that's the benchmark you should be showing your players, not the money they're making compared to guards or innkeepers or whatever.
Deadmoon
|
Ah, that makes sense now. Not a bad question - some characters will want to know just how good of a deal they're getting, and without putting a price on things, it's hard to do so. I think that quantifying it against how much any given citizen of Sandpoint or Magnimar makes isn't the way to go about it though. The wealth by level tables aren't weighed against commoners, but against the sorts of foes PCs would be going up against, and the sort of equipment they expect PCs should have in order to face them. After about 2nd level, the amount of money your character will be making far outstrips most normal professions to the point where it's laughable.
Really, that's the benchmark you should be showing your players, not the money they're making compared to guards or innkeepers or whatever.
It's like adventurers with class levels are professional athletes.
| Haladir |
Adventuring really is a way to get rich quick! In-game, Ameiko recovered enough wealth in just one year of adventuring to buy the Rusty Dragon. Even 3rd-level PCs are fantastically wealthy compared to most folks.
Of course, that line of work involves the very real risk of getting yourself killed (or worse!) in numerous nasty ways, so it's not for most folks-- only the most hearty need apply. People like the PCs!