Horas Ebonfeather
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I am joining a goblin campaign and we are starting at lvl 2. I would like peoples opinion on my idea of taking the Feral Gnasher and Alchemist and turning him into a fun grappler using Gobo Horde idea with Divvox2 and Scott Wilhelm magic item uses to make him more fun. Also Ed-Zero for a basic spell list of potions and items that I might be able to utilize.
I know I will be using at least 2 lvls in brawler with the archtype strangler(maybe) because keeping my dex bonus to AC is helpful along with the considered flanking when grappling to add a little sneak attack dmg. I don’t know if I will continue with more lvls in brawler.
I will take some lvls in alchemist both for storyline flavor and for the uses of the mutagens and alchemical potions I can make. Not sure if I am going to go with 12 lvls or less. But I will have a minimum of 6 levels.
With Feral Gnasher barbarian I will be taking a minimum of 6 lvls, I might go up to 9 lvls because that greater lockjaw is nice.
I don’t know if looking into any lvls in rogue to help stack my sneak attack dmg is going to be worth it?
Brawler 2
Strangle (Ex)
At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The strangler is always considered flankingher target for the purpose of using this ability. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th and 15th levels.
This ability replaces unarmed strike and brawler’s flurry.
Practiced Strangler (Ex)
At 2nd level, when a strangler has the grappled condition, she does not take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and does not lose her Dexterity bonus to AC. At 9th level, a grappling or grappled strangler still threatens an area and is still able to make attacks of opportunity while grappling or grappled; when pinned, she is not denied her Dexterity bonus and does not take a –4 penalty to Armor Class.
This ability replaces AC bonus.
Barbarian
A feral gnasher has the following class features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A feral gnasher loses all martial weapon proficiencies except for greatclub and loses proficiency with medium armor.
Savage Bite (Ex)
At 1st level, a feral gnasher gains a savage bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of damage. If the goblin already has the hard head, big teeth racial trait, the damage increases to 1d6. At 10th level, the damage from a feral gnasher’s bite increases to 1d6 (or 1d8 if the goblin has the hard head, big teeth racial trait) and deals ×3 damage on a critical hit.
This ability replaces fast movement.
Impromptu Armament (Ex)
At 2nd level, a feral gnasher gains Throw Anything as a bonus feat and can pick up an unattended object that can be wielded in one hand as a free action. Additionally, the feral gnasher can take Catch Off-Guard in place of a rage power.
This ability replaces the rage power gained at second level.
Lockjaw (Ex)
At 3rd level, a feral gnasher gains the grab ability with her bite attack. A feral gnasher can use this ability on a creature up to one size category larger than she is. This replaces trap sense +1.
Improvised Weapon Mastery (Ex)
At 5th level, a feral gnasher gains Improvised Weapon Mastery as a bonus feat.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Improved Lockjaw (Ex)
At 6th level, as long as a feral gnasher is controlling the grapple with her lockjaw attack, she does not gain the grappled condition, but is unable to move or use her mouth for anything other than grappling.
This ability replaces trap sense +2.
Greater Lockjaw (Ex)
At 9th level and again at 15th level, the size of a creature a feral gnasher is able to use her lockjaw’s grab ability on increases by one size increment.
This ability replaces trap sense +3 and trap sense +5.
Wicked Improvisation (Ex)
At 12th level, a feral gnasher becomes more capable with improvised weapons and natural attacks. The feral gnasher gains a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls when using natural attacks or improvised weapons while raging. At 14th level and every two levels thereafter, the damage bonus increases by +1. This increase is not precision damage and is thus multiplied on a critical hit.
This ability replaces trap sense +4.
Rage Powers
Hive totem
Hive totem resilience
Hive Totem toxicity
Greater animal Fury
Bloody bite
Animal fury
Feats
Improved grappler
Greater grapple
Improved initiative
Jawbreaker
Bonebreaker
Neckbreaker
Kraken style
Improved nat wpn
Rapid grappler
BURN! BURN! BURN!
Flame Heart
Agile Maneuvers
Combat reflexes
Vital Strike (maybe)
Improved Vital strike (maybe)
Greater vital strike (maybe)
Discoveries
Tumor Familiar: King Crab lvl1
Scrap bomb lvl 1
Sticky bomb lvl 10
Explosive bomb lvl 1
Rocket bomb lvl 6
Greater mutagen lvl 12 (maybe get this high in alchemist)
Mummification (maybe)
Traits
Bred For War
Scott Wilhelm
I can think of a few.
Armbands of the Brawler 500gp, +1CMB
Brawler Armor Enchantment +1 equivalent, +2CMB
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: 4000gp, +2CMB
Cracked, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, 5000gp, +1 all attack rolls
Belt of Dexterity: 4000gp for +2 Dex
Robe of Infinite Twine, 1000gp, because your goal as a Grappler should not be to inflict damage, but to Tie opponents Up.
Now for some Feats and Class Abilities.
There is Weapon Focus Grapple, of course.
Take 4 levels in Alchemist.
At level 2, grow a Tentacle: +4 on all Grapple Checks.
At level 4, get a King Crab Tumor Familiar: +2 on grapple checks, and you can play a really neat defensive trick if you are interested.
At level 1, you get Mutagens. A Dex Mutagen will give you a +4 Dex, a +2 Natural Armor Bonus (and -2 Wisdom) for 10 minutes which will stack with a Belt of Dexterity.
As a Drunken Master, you can take mutagens and extracts without provoking attacks of opportunity, but you really want to take the Potion Glutton Feat. This will let you drink any potable as a Swift Action, and Mutagens and Extracts are potable! Now I will tell you what your favorite Extract is:
True Strike: +20 on your attack roll! Normally, you need a Standard Action to take/cast True Strike, and you can still take a Standard Action, but with Potion Glutton, you can pop your extract as a Swift Action. So you might cast True Strike on yourself (I like Wands.) on round 1 and Move up to your opponent. Then the next round, you Initiate a Grapple at an extra +20 (making your CMB +50 pretty soon if you follow my advice) as a Standard Action, pop your Extract of True Strike as a Swift Action, then Tie Up your Opponent as a Move Action.
You will have about a 91% chance of taking out anything smaller than a Balor Demon in 1 round. You could have been doing that by level 9.
The Lore Warden Fighter Archetype is pretty good for Grappling, too.
Divvox2
As for getting the CMB up...
-BAB +13
-Dex +7
-Brawling armor +2
-Dusty rose prism + Wayfinder +2 untyped
-Pale Green, cracked +1
-Thorny Violet Ioun Stone +2
-Improved Grappling +2
-Greater Grappling +2
-Gauntlets of the Maneuver +2 (not weapons, don't impact your damage)
-Adhesive armor quality +2
That gets you to 35. If you were a brawler you would have another +3 from the class maneuver training ability.
I should note that at this point things start getting shenanigans that make grapple useless or dangerous like rings of Freedom of Movement (steal/sunder maneuver!), the ability to *bamf* into gaseous clouds, teleportation abilities, shapechanging shenanigans, and horrible on-contact abilities. So don't be surprised if your GM starts thumbing their nose at you with vampires, chaos beasts, and savvy wizards.
Then again, a buddy of mine bashed a vampire over the head with a bookshelf that was in the room (fully PFS legal rules/feats) for ~30 damage, then chucked it at him as a touch attack, using his strength instead of dex, for another 40 damage. IMO that wins out.
Gobo Horde
Alright now onto the meat of the post. A melee feral gnasher can still do decent damage and can still be quite viable, but I think you guys are looking at it wrong. This is only my opinion and as not to sound snooty let me try and preswade you.
There are three big things that I would like you to think about The first one is how you do your damage, the second one is what totem you use and the third is how much damage you can do.
If you try and build a standard natural attacking barbarian, you will always be behind in damage from the loss of 4 points in str and because you cannot wield weapons well since you lose your martial weapon proficiencies. So if you cannot be a standard barbarian, try something else. I would suggest you look at grappling as the solution. The archetype has alot of things going for a grappler, namely she gains the grab ability with her bite, so can start grapples as free actions and gains a +4 to grapple checks witch is really nice. She can also use them on creatures larger than she normally could and this can get past the one of the big problems with grappling. At level 6 she does not gain the grappled condition when she controls the grapple. This is huge and is normally worth a -20 penalty! This means you do not take a -4 to your dex, you do not take a -2 to your attack rolls and CM checks, and you can still take Aoo's and your hands are free to do other things. Lastly you gain competence bonuses to your natural attacks that helps in grapples as well. So since half of the archetype focuses on grappling why not stick with it?
Now my second point is in regards to rage powers. Keeping in mind that you loose your first rage power (witch really sucks D:) so you will always be behind a standard barbarian in those terms as well. The main draw of beast totem that barbarians like so much is pounce so you can attack multiple times at the end of a charge and gain your damage that way. I say this is a trap! Yes you heard me a TRAP! You are still reading and havent brushed me off as insane yet? Ok good. Remember how you are suboptimal at the normal attacking barbarian? if you try and follow the normal while being less good at it, you will always be a suboptimal normal barbarian.
If you are going the route of the grappler beast totem is even less desired as it offers you nothing of value. During a grapple you can only attack with one weapon at a time and so having 2 extra claws wont up your damage. Since grappling takes a move action at the least (if you have greater grapple) you can never full attack while grappling eather so that is out as well. And is there really any benefit to charging when you can just walk up to the target and start the grapple with a standard attack? The only benefit you gain out of the chain is the improved armour and that is often considered the tax! Worst, it prevents you from taking the hive totem chain which is what I WOULD recommend you take.
Often overlooked at and considered gimmicky, there is actually alot of gold in the Hive Totem chain. Hive totem grants you +1-5 to all your str ability checks which grappling is, and adds to your CMD against some maneuvers. Hive resilience grants you a further +1-5 to your CMB and CMD when you grapple and they are untyped so stack with everything. Hive toxicity really is just gravy and you can skip it if you want to. It does increase your bite damage however. What it does, is increase your animal fury bite damage and lowers the penalties for using it with weapons, but since you have your lockjaw bite that is just as strong and has other benefits going for it (grab ect) this is useless to you. It does grant you a scaling toxic bite that gets more powerful the more con you have, and since you have large amounts of con from rage can be hard to resist. Again, you can skip it if you want as you can get what you want as early as lvl 6, almost half the amount of time as beast totem! This is great since it is so front loaded as well. The best part of the whole chain is its prerequisite, animal fury, you get your capstone first!
Let me explain, animal fury does 3 things, first it gives you a bite that is weaker than your lockjaw, so ignore that part. second it allows you to make a bite attack as part of the action to maintain a grapple that happens before the grapple check is made. This is the golden part! Third, if you do damage, it makes it easier to make that grapple check. why this is so good is that you can bite to inniate the grapple, then bite with animal fury to improve your grapple chances, then bite again as the result of maintaining the grapple. here is where your damage comes from. Just remember that you lose your first rage power, so to get this as early as possible you would have to spend a feat.
Lastly I want to talk about your damage. If you have your bite and 2 claws, each does str damage, if you try and wield weapons, that gets cut in half and you loose out on the corresponding limb. But if you only have a single natural attack, it gets 1 1/2 str. Remember above how grab and animal fury can grant you extra attacks in a turn? you now get a higher str ratio on all your attacks and can actually do more attacks than you could with a natural attack pouncer. You start out a little slower but still faster than the normal progression, you get 1 attack at lvl 1 and 2, at 3rd you gain lockjaw so you can attack twice, a normal attack and a free grapple. at lvl 4 you gain animal fury and your attack progression looks like this; move up to the target, attack with bite and start a grapple, gain free animal fury bite, then bite as a result of the grapple. Thats 3 attacks at lvl 4 that can be done in a single standard action. when you get greater grapple at lvl 7, it stays the same as lvl 4 but gets better on subsequent turns looking like this; move action to maintain grapple, free animal fury bite, normal grapple bite. Second move action maintain grappler, free animal fury bite, normal grapple bite. When you get rapid grappler you add 2 attacks to both sets for 5 attacks while moving and 6 attacks while standing still.
So as you can see, it can still be quite viable and I would suggest building a grappler feral gnasher. At higher levels you can gain access to things like body bludgeon and giant hide armour, as well as things like energy eruption and noxious bite (a monster feat btw). I hope the post wasnt to long as it did turn into a wall of text, But I really like this archetype and kinda rambled on.
As for the number of attacks, you actually bite with animal fury 3 times. I will run 3 senarios to demonstrate how this works.
#1) you start apart from your target.
Move action to close to your target, standard to attack 1st bite, free grapple attempt because of grab and animal fury procs 2nd bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 3rd bite, rapid grappler activates granting a second animal fury 4th bite, and finally do damage to maintain the grapple 5th bite.
5 bites off of a standard and a swift action, no pounce.
#2) you already grappled last turn and are currently in the grapple.
move action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 1st bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 2nd bite, move action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 3rd bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 4th bite, swift action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 5th bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 6th bite.
6 bites if you are already inside the grapple.
#3) you are beside the target but not in a grapple.
standard action to attack your target 1st bite, free grapple attempt because of grab, animal fury procs 2nd bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 3rd bite, move action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 4th bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 5th bite, swift action to maintain the grapple, animal fury procs 6th bite, do damage to maintain the grapple 7th bite.
7 bites when someone else would full attack, I did not include this one as it should be rare.
Ed-Zero
Remembered the spell Strong Jaws that increases your die damage by two steps. It's trivial enough to make a custom item that gives it permanently.
-Strong Jaws spell- two size categories
-Enlarge person spell - one size category
-Righteous Might spell - one size category
-Divine Vessel - one size category
-Monks Robe - one size category
-Improved Natural Attack - one size category (i think)
-Improved damage from eidolon - one size category
-Amulet of Natural Attacks
-Enchant your chompers with Fire, Sonic, whatever else you want to do
-Get some form of permanent haste for an extra bite attack
There is another spell that also increases die steps by one but I can't remember what it is right now.
With these, it doesn't matter how small your bite damage is, you're going to be doing colossal damage with it, which will be massive. Of course, if you want to opt of the spells that make you bigger...
Strong Jaws - 2
Monks Robe - 1
INA - 1
Eidolon - 1