Red dragon in icy prison. Since it can breathe, GM ruled it could use breath weapon. The question then becomes if the breath weapon detroys the icy prison does it then also spread out to the breath weapon AoE and damage PCs in the area?
The GM already ruled the dragon could use its breath weapon. Shouldn't what happens next be their call as well?
Thanks, but not really that helpful. Icy prison is a poorly written spell, leaves a lot open to be GM call. The question is does a breath weapon act like a fireball or lightning bolt? If it destroys the barrier, does it continue on to affect the AoE?
Personally I am a thinking yes, but it generated debate at the table. GM call was no it does not (which benefited the PCs). More interested in a RAW answer as I can see this potentially coming up in other games.
I'd say that since the dragon can still breathe it can still use its breath weapon.
But since Icy Prison breaks line of effect, the breath weapon would only affect the prison (which would probably melt it), not anyone outside it.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dragon breath doesn't just involving breathing, otherwise it would be a free action rather than a standard action.
Though I agree that just describing the victim as "helpless" is poor wording...
Whats the verdict ? were fighting a red dragon now in one icy prison.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Does 'Helpless' include not being able to use the Frightful Presence ability?
Please hurry with replies... its almost his turn
I would say it can breathe. You don't have line of effect to the dragon so its not really at your mercy per the "helpless" condition, and the spell never says that you can't take any actions. I would say that the dragon can't physically move, but if it can breathe it makes sense to allow it to use the breath weapon.
I would say if the breath weapon deals enough damage to destroy the barrier, then it continues past.
While not exactly a lightning bolt or a fireball, I think using their example is a fair ruling.
Fireball wrote: If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does. But it's going to be the GM's call ultimately.
I agree that the dragon should be able to use its breath weapon. After all, a bound dragon is helpless as well but should certainly still be able to breathe fire. I don't think, though, that the breath weapon should continue past the barrier if it happens to destroy it. Fireball is a specific exception - otherwise, burst effects can't reach anything with total cover from their point of origin.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
As the GM running that game I had finally decided to allow the breathe weapon since the spell specifically said the creature can still breathe. It seemed to go hand in hand. But, I was planning no using the breathe weapon only as a means to break out of the icy prison. It just seemed like a more reasonable interpretation. It's moot, though, as the dragon rolled high enough on a strength check to defeat the icy prison and break out.
My other concerns were with the 'helpless' designation. Did this mean the dragon was unable to use the Frightful Presence aura? Did this mean the dragon was unable to cast 'at will' spells or use 'spell-like abilities'?
It was clear the dragon would have been unable to use melee attacks. That fell well within the definition of 'helpless'. But the 'helpless' designation along with the spell description seemed to indicate only a PHYSICAL helplessness.
Gar0351 wrote: It was clear the dragon would have been unable to use melee attacks. That fell well within the definition of 'helpless'. But the 'helpless' designation along with the spell description seemed to indicate only a PHYSICAL helplessness. I am sure there are a few spells or effects that make you helpless and also prevent mental actions, but they would probably have to be more descriptive (or put you to sleep or unconscious or something). In this case, since there's no indication that the dragon is frozen completely (like a cryogenic subject or a flesh to ice-like flesh to stone variant) it seems like purely mental actions (and breathing, which you've extended to include breath weapons, which is a fair call) are permitted. Also, the specific action of making a Strength check to break free indicates that the target is conscious and aware enough to attempt such an action purposefully (ie. it doesn't just trigger involuntarily through massive muscle contractions or intense shivering).
Frightful Presence wrote: This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. Activating this ability is a free action that is usually part of an attack or charge. Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. ... The dragon's frightful presence would not be stopped by the icy prison (assuming the dragon could be seen within the prison). If the dragon broke through, I would definitely say it worked because then you clearly could see the action. Only of the prison completely obscured it and it failed to break free could an opponent claim they didn't see it. Since I believe you can still observe the creature, even it fails, the mere sight of its frightful strength and struggling would have a chance to cause a save (assuming the dragon chose to activate it as a free action during its action, which it certainly can and can do it over and over, though anyone who saves is unaffected by further attempts).
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