Grappled condition - changes CMD?

[Fresnel]

The grappled condition gives a -4 penalty to Dex.

CMD = BAB + Str Mod + Dex mod

So during a grapple both the attacker and defender has a -2 to their CMD. Is this right? I see no mention of this in the various examples. Or does this mod only apply to third parties?

When pinned the character is denied his Dex bonus. So this causes his CMD to fall (if he has a Dex of 16+) or raise (if he had a Dex of 13 or less)... Surely not?

[Matthew Downie]

Being denied your Dex bonus never raises AC or CMD.

[Quantum Steve]

The penalty to DEX would affect CMD, similarly if a target is denied their DEX bonus to AC, they also lose their DEX bonus to CMD; so it works just like you think.

Don't forget, though, that a pinned character also takes a -4 penalty to AC. Penalties to AC also apply to CMD, so pinning a creature could never actually result in a situation where their AC would rise.

Matthew Downie wrote:

Being denied your Dex bonus never raises AC or CMD.

This is not a rule. If it weren't for the untyped penalty to AC, pinning a creature could have caused their AC to rise, as unintuitive as that may sound.

A similar situation, in which a change in the creature's condition would cause it to lose it's DEX bonus to AC, but also no longer be taking a different penalty to AC or CMD, could cause the creature's AC to rise.

[MichaelCullen]

Quantum Steve wrote:

The penalty to DEX would affect CMD, similarly if a target is denied their DEX bonus to AC, they also lose their DEX bonus to CMD; so it works just like you think.

Don't forget, though, that a pinned character also takes a -4 penalty to AC. Penalties to AC also apply to CMD, so pinning a creature could never actually result in a situation where their AC would rise.

Matthew Downie wrote:

Being denied your Dex bonus never raises AC or CMD.

This is not a rule. If it weren't for the untyped penalty to AC, pinning a creature could have caused their AC to rise, as unintuitive as that may sound.

A similar situation, in which a change in the creature's condition would cause it to lose it's DEX bonus to AC, but also no longer be taking a different penalty to AC or CMD, could cause the creature's AC to rise.

The key is that you are being denied you dex bonus not dex modifier. If your modifier is negative, it is a penalty not a bonus. You are not denied your dex penalty. Penalties and bonuses are even defined seperatley in the CRB.