blindsense, pinpoint, and targetting

[lachapakhan]

blindsense lets a creature pinpoint creatures it cannot see... is pinpointing enough to allow targetted spells, like charm person, magic missile, slow, etc.?

i know it allows melee or ranged attacks and area effects to target the correct square, but i wasn't clear on targetting that just involves designating a creature.

please, provide the rules references... been hunting around unsuccessfully, so far.

[SlimGauge]

Here's what I can find:

Under CRB 'Aiming a Spell' it says "You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target."

Ok, let's look for anything in the definition of pinpointing that overrides this.

From Environment: Darkness we have "A blinded creature must first pinpoint the location of an opponent in order to attack the right square;"

So pinpointing gives you the SQUARE(s) a creature occupies.

Let's look at Blindsense

"Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense".

So if you've got blindsense, have pinpointed your target, and want to attack/cast a spell on it, it still has total concealment.

Now, some spells (mostly AoEs) still work just fine on concealed targets, and others (like rays) would have a 50% miss chance, I think you're out of luck with targeted spells like Magic Missile.

The answer *might* be different for BlindSIGHT, as it is much superior to BlindSENSE.

[Kayerloth]

CRB, Glossary wrote:

Blindsight and Blindsense

Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can't see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures that use blindsight.
Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

So yes if the creature has Blindsight you typically ignore concealment and its resulting miss chance. The creature, provided it has line of effect and is within the listed range of its blindsight, could target something with magic missile, or ray of enfeeblement and ignore the concealment. When it won't work is pretty much left in the hands of the GM i.e. if getting deafened, for example, renders unable to use its blindsight effectively.

[lachapakhan]

thanks