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I know, I know, we talk about this all the time, so I should know this stuff. But I do have two questions.
EVERGREEN ADVENTURES
All Tier 1 and 1-2 adventures can be replayed an unlimited number of times with a 1st-level character for credit. The Tier 1 and 1–2 adventures can also be played with a 2nd-level character once for credit in each campaign mode (Core and Standard Modes). GMs receive another Chronicle sheet each time they run one of the Tier 1 and Tier 1-2 adventures, but can only apply a Chronicle sheet to one 2nd-level character per adventure per campaign mode.
First of all, that bolded part surprised me. Tier 1 adventures can be played with a level 2 now??? So I could do First Steps 1 with a level 2 PC? Isn't that new?
And second question, because the wording isn't 100% clear, I think: Can you both play and get GM credit for the same tier 1-2 adventure with level 2 PCs? Non-hypothetically, I already played The Consortium Compact with a level 2. When I GM it this coming Saturday, can I put the credit on a different level 2? Or do I have to put it on a level 1, because I can only get credit on a single PC at level 2 with that one?
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Isn't that new?
Not unless I am missing some nuance of the language. The "play once at level 2" clause is at least as old as season 7 and may be as old as mid-late season 5.
The exception being Master of the Fallen Fortress which until relatively recently still had the "must be a brand new PC clause."
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Ok, maybe the tier 1 thing has been there for a couple of years, and I just never noticed.
More important to me right now is the second question that everyone's ignoring so far. I already played Consortium Compact with a level 2, and I'm GMing it (again) this Saturday. Can I put the GM chronicle on another level 2, or does it have to go to a level 1, because I can only get credit on a single level 2 PC?
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Can you both play and get GM credit for the same tier 1-2 adventure with level 2 PCs? Non-hypothetically, I already played The Consortium Compact with a level 2. When I GM it this coming Saturday, can I put the credit on a different level 2? Or do I have to put it on a level 1, because I can only get credit on a single PC at level 2 with that one?
I believe you can play it once with a 2nd level character for credit, and apply GM credit once to a 2nd level character, in the same way that any other adventure that's not replayable can give one player credit and one GM credit. It might be good to have confirmation though.
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Can you both play and get GM credit for the same tier 1-2 adventure with level 2 PCs? Non-hypothetically, I already played The Consortium Compact with a level 2. When I GM it this coming Saturday, can I put the credit on a different level 2? Or do I have to put it on a level 1, because I can only get credit on a single PC at level 2 with that one?I believe you can play it once with a 2nd level character for credit, and apply GM credit once to a 2nd level character, in the same way that any other adventure that's not replayable can give one player credit and one GM credit. It might be good to have confirmation though.
^ This is how I and every VO I've talked to (before I became a VO myself) has interpreted it.
Also before I was a VO or even generally active on the PFS boards at all, I was told that MotFF was 1-2 by a VL and ran with that...so maybe the recent Free Replay boon might be (hopefully?) alluding to a future ruling about that module and its level range...
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Can you both play and get GM credit for the same tier 1-2 adventure with level 2 PCs? Non-hypothetically, I already played The Consortium Compact with a level 2. When I GM it this coming Saturday, can I put the credit on a different level 2? Or do I have to put it on a level 1, because I can only get credit on a single PC at level 2 with that one?I believe you can play it once with a 2nd level character for credit, and apply GM credit once to a 2nd level character, in the same way that any other adventure that's not replayable can give one player credit and one GM credit. It might be good to have confirmation though.^ This is how I and every VO I've talked to (before I became a VO myself) has interpreted it.
That's what I thought, but the wording in the Guide is unclear enough that I wanted to be sure. This is actually the first time it's come up for me. It had to happen eventually, though. Especially since I seem to have latched on to The Consortium Compact as my favorite replayable lately (since getting bored with First Steps 1 and The Confirmation), so this will be my 9th time doing it as either a player or GM.
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The term "adventures" may or may not also include quests. The definition of adventures in the guide doesn't include quests, but the definition of quests in the appendix of the guide defines them as adventures. So it may be that all of the tier 1 quest arcs also count as replayable. I think that's what was intended, in any event, because there are almost no separate rules for quests at all if the rules for adventures don't apply to them.
(I think the idea that the quest rules laid out in Kobold Quarterly are still the only replay rules in effect for quests is absurd. What's still in effect is, I think, what has since been migrated to the Guides.)
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Nefreet, I don't think that's what Fromper is talking about. Your confusing his post with an earlier part of the thread (or you're replying to a post above his).
Fromper is asking about a tier 1-2 scenario (specifically Consortium Compact) and whether or not you can have one chronicle on a 2nd level character as a player and one chronicle on a second level character as a GM, or only one or the other, but not both.
I'm pretty sure it's one of each, but the current language in the guide isn't as clear as it could be on that point.
As for a level 2 in a Tier 1 (in other words, MoFF or First Steps), the answer is No, and campaign leadership did address it. TOZ quoted Linda earlier in this thread, and her post was after the release of the season 8 guide, so it is the most recent ruling.
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As for a level 2 in a Tier 1 (in other words, MoFF or First Steps), the answer is No, and campaign leadership did address it. TOZ quoted Linda earlier in this thread, and her post was after the release of the season 8 guide, so it is the most recent ruling.
Apologies if my post implied that doing that was okay. I meant my post as in that I played/ran MotFF at level 2 years ago when things were far less codified/clarified.
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This particular scenario was created to help bridge the "Level 6 gap" that PFS characters encountered between Tier 1-5 and Tier 7-11.I don't understand your reference to a "gap" ... isn't that what Tier 3-7 and 5-9 already do?
3-7 has 3-4 and 6-7 subtiers.
5-9 has 5-6 and 8-9 subtiers.
However, the number of scenarios in the 3-7 and 5-9 range =/= the number of scenarios in the 1-5 and 7-11 range, so there's a bottleneck.
In addition, my play experience has been seeing 5-9s with a bunch of 6's dragged 'up' to the 8-9, and 3-7s with the prevalence for 'playing down' with the 6.
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This particular scenario was created to help bridge the "Level 6 gap" that PFS characters encountered between Tier 1-5 and Tier 7-11.I don't understand your reference to a "gap" ... isn't that what Tier 3-7 and 5-9 already do?
It's actually levels 3/6/9, but level 6 is the worst. It's a byproduct of a 5 level tier system.
Starfinder uses 4 level tiers (so 1-4 instead of 1-5, for example) so that there's no bottle necking like in Pathfinder.
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This particular scenario was created to help bridge the "Level 6 gap" that PFS characters encountered between Tier 1-5 and Tier 7-11.I don't understand your reference to a "gap" ... isn't that what Tier 3-7 and 5-9 already do?It's actually levels 3/6/9, but level 6 is the worst. It's a byproduct of a 5 level tier system.
Starfinder uses 4 level tiers (so 1-4 instead of 1-5, for example) so that there's no bottle necking like in Pathfinder.
I've actually found level 2 is worse than level 3. But level 6 is the other bad one.
If you think about it, level 5 PCs can play in 3 tiers of scenarios: 1-5, 3-7, and 5-9. Level 7s also have 3 possible tiers: 3-7, 5-9, and 7-11. Since level 6s only have two tiers (3-7 and 5-9), they have less choices.
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I had never really thought about that ... so I just went to my master spreadsheet of scenarios and did some filtering, and found this:
Tier 1-2 3 scenarios
Tier 1-5 72 scenarios
Tier 3-7 35 scenarios (including Bonekeep 1 and 2)
Tier 5-9 42 scenarios
Tier 7-11 50 scenarios
Breaking that down by how many scenarios you can play at any given level:
Level 1: 72 + 3 replayables
Level 2: 72 + 3 replayable once each
Level 3: 107
Level 4: 107
Level 5: 149
Level 6: 79
Level 7: 122
Level 8: 92
Level 9: 92
Level 10: 50
Level 11: 50
Well, look at that. Level 6 gap.
This post brought to you by Math/Stats Addicts With Too Much Free Time.
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FWIW, the issue with MotFF was that for a long time, *modules* (not scenarios) were listed with a single level. "Masks of the Living God is a Pathfinder module for Level 3 characters". The prevailing understanding was that yes, it's for Level 3 characters, but characters one level above and one level below can still play.
This was reinforced by the chronicle ranges.
If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't until Tonya that we got a clarification that you should use exactly what the Chronicle says, never assuming the +1/-1 rule.
So for a while, it was understood that MotFF could be played at L2. Then when the clarification came out, it stopped.
I have a character with a L2 chronicle for MotFF on it. I suppose if I'm asked to I'll drop the guy an XP, but for now I'm not worrying about it. And since he's not my EotT candidate, it's unlikely to come up.
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I did similar math about a year ago here
Through the end of season 7:
Total Scenarios by level:
1 / 103
2 / 100
3 / 127
4 / 127
5 / 169
6 / 102
7 / 148
8 / 97
9 / 96
10 / 53
11 / 53
12 / 7
13 / 7
14 / 5
15 / 5
16 / 1
17 / 1
18 / 1
19 / 1
(I am including specials and retired scenarios, does not include modules or AP sections. I'm not sure why our exact numbers are so different but they show the same pattern.)
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FWIW, the issue with MotFF was that for a long time, *modules* (not scenarios) were listed with a single level.
MotFF is the only one, actually, ever. Its corner case status made it an outlier and fueled arguments for years.
No other Module had a Chronicle with a single level Tier.
If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't until Tonya that we got a clarification that you should use exactly what the Chronicle says, never assuming the +1/-1 rule.
This issue dates way back before Tonya. A year prior to her arrival I had asked John Compton how it was handled, and he said "Level 1 only".
Then the new Guide came out and had two different rules in two different sections, and the arguments started again.
The default assumption was never that a Level 2 could play through it. There were simply two different opinions, both supported by years of conflicting evidence.
I have a character with a L2 chronicle for MotFF on it. I suppose if I'm asked to I'll drop the guy an XP, but for now I'm not worrying about it. And since he's not my EotT candidate, it's unlikely to come up.
Because this was understandably contested for so long, you shouldn't be required to "delete" any Level 2 credit. That would cause havoc. Imagine a character going through Eyes who played MotFF ten levels ago.
The best thing to do is just not run any Level 2 characters through it going forward.