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Hi all,
I'm currently running an Iron gods campaign, where one of the player is an Android (the others are an halfling, an half-orc and a catfolk). This is actually suggested in the AP, with no mention of GM oversight, so I didn't spare too much thought on it at character creation.
However, having played a few games and looking a bit more into the race, I feel there is a significant gap in terms of racial powers. Android is priced at 16RP which is already a lot more than any core race, and this seems even way too cheap to me considering the constructed trait (which gives tons of immunities for a mere 10RP).
Given that, I'm considering giving some sort of boon (a feat ?) to the less-favored characters. I don't want to punish the player that choose an AP-sanctioned and flavorful race, but I'd like the party to be somewhat balanced.
What do you think would be reasonable ?
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Dot. I've implemented a system you're welcome to use, I'll post it when I get home from work.
Androids only count as half-construct, they don't get the regular construct immunities.
They're only immune to sleep and disease.
The race really isn't significantly stronger than any of the core races.
Androids only count as half-construct, they don't get the regular construct immunities.
They're only immune to sleep and disease.
The race really isn't significantly stronger than any of the core races.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-r p/android-16-rp/
Immunity to disease, fatigue, and exhaustion, along with a +4 to a bunch of saves, including poison and mind-affecting effects (meaning the majority of all will saves) is pretty significant.
I don’t think androids are really all that powerful. While they have immunity to a lot of stuff they also cannot benefit from a morale bonus. Considering how many spells and class abilities provide moral bonuses that is a huge drawback. They are also vulnerable to anything that affects either constructs or humanoids.
Race points are not a good measure of how powerful a race is. The system is not that accurate and many things that the core races get are underpowered. Humans for example are listed as being only 9pts. Look at every optimization guide out there and you will notice that humans are almost always listed as being the best option. Even if they are not the absolute best race they are always among the top choices. If race points were anywhere near accurate humans should be weaker than other core races.
Dwarves get saves vs poisons and Spells and SLA...
When I look at Androids, I see an immunity to a bunch of things that rarely come up anyway. We've never had more than one character with a disease at a time... the DCs are low enough that most people save. Fatigue and exhaustion can be detrimental, but we work so hard to avoid that condition that we've never really SUFFERED from it. Unless we have a paladin or spell to remove it..
They look like a fun race, but most of their special abilities are duplicated by anyone else who just rolls well that day. They don't seem to have any game-breaking super abilities or anything. Compared to Dwarves or Half-orcs or things like that, they have some unique abilities as opposed to 'made your save'.
Nanite surge is pretty potent, but still just a 1 per day.
The race is definitely stronger than other standard races, but not enough to require an adjustment. Honestly, you could probably bring them in line by removing nanite surge if you really wanted to.
Behold, for the first time outside of my group, the Paragon System!
Or at least the bulk of it.
At first level, PCs choose two feats, but only one from a given list. For instance, a player could select Toughness and Extra Grit, but not Toughness and Iron Will. Androids choose only one feat.
RESOLVE
Great Fortitude
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Toughness
TALENT
Acrobatic
Awareness
Animal Affinity
Athletic
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Magical Aptitude
Persuasive
Self-Sufficient
Stealthy
Skill Focus (any)
TRAINING
Light Armor Proficiency
Medium Armor Proficiency
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Shield Proficiency
Shield Focus
Tower Shield Proficiency (if the PC starts with proficiency with all other shields)
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (if the PC starts with +1 BAB or proficiency with all martial weapons)
Weapon Focus
Point-Blank Shot
Spell Focus
RESOURCE*
Extra Arcane Pool
Extra Bane
Extra Bombs
Extra Channel
Extra Grit
Extra Inspiration
Extra Ki
Extra Lay on Hands
Extra Martial Flexibility
Extra Mental Focus
Extra Panache
Extra Performance
Extra Rage
Extra Reservoir
Extra Summons
*Note that these feats can be taken at first level, even though some classes don't gain these class features until later levels (such as ki pool or bane)
HERITAGE
Any feat with a racial prerequisite for which you otherwise qualify. Androids may select Technologist as their Paragon feat.
COMPANIONS
Paragons can forgo one of their Paragon Feats in order to grant a Paragon feat to any companion granted through class features (not including familiars or cohorts). In this case, both feats may come from the same category. In addition, such companions begin play with full HP from their first Hit Die.
There's a lot more to it, but I think this is the part most relevant to your situation.
A few things to note: I originally designed this system for a homebrew game in which I changed all the races and magic items are much harder to come by; the intention was to make PCs and important NPCs more intrinsically powerful (and yes, it will probably be necessary to alter some pivotal NPCs using the same guidelines), to help qualify for certain prestige classes, and to make character builds that would normally be suboptimal more appealing. The bit about androids I threw in specifically for Iron Gods, of course, but it sets a precedent; under the Paragon system, if one PC is of a powerful race, you can give them fewer bonus feats, or give other PCs more bonus feats to shore up the difference.
Also of note: I've never actually seen this in action, and won't until we start up our own Iron Gods game in about a month, so I can't say from experience how well it works. I do, however, expect that it will make things SIGNIFICANTLY easier for my players, but that's okay with me. Tweak it as you will and implement it at your peril!
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I don’t think androids are really all that powerful. While they have immunity to a lot of stuff they also cannot benefit from a morale bonus. Considering how many spells and class abilities provide moral bonuses that is a huge drawback. They are also vulnerable to anything that affects either constructs or humanoids.
Not benefiting from morale bonus is another of those drawbacks that gives the impression that it'll have an effect but actually doesn't, as you can build around it. At the moment, the party has a medium, that most often acts as a bard, except his bonuses are not morale.
When I look at Androids, I see an immunity to a bunch of things that rarely come up anyway. We've never had more than one character with a disease at a time... the DCs are low enough that most people save. Fatigue and exhaustion can be detrimental, but we work so hard to avoid that condition that we've never really SUFFERED from it. Unless we have a paladin or spell to remove it..
Yes, exhaustion and disease do not appear very often (and sleep never). However, everyone seems to be forgetting the immunity to fear and emotion effects. This does come up a lot, and makes a big difference. Also, +4 mind-affecting is no small thing.
@Cyrad: I don't want to remove anything from the character as it is my fault trusting too much the game/AP balancing. The player chose a legit option suggested to him.
@Sandal Fury: A bonus feat from a limited list seems a good idea. I'll probably not give 2 (and 1 to the android), though, as the party is already overpowering the AP quite a bit (which is not as much of an issue as in-party balance imo)
Androids only count as half-construct, they don't get the regular construct immunities.
They're only immune to sleep and disease.
The race really isn't significantly stronger than any of the core races.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-r p/android-16-rp/
Immunity to disease, fatigue, and exhaustion, along with a +4 to a bunch of saves, including poison and mind-affecting effects (meaning the majority of all will saves) is pretty significant.
It's not bad, but it's not so strong as to need an adjustment.
Heck, think about all the Scared Orcs with Fates Favored who are getting a +2 to all their saves.
I did miss fatigue and exhaustion, because they used the words "not subject" instead of immune so I missed it when scanning the ability.
Still, they're not so strong IMO to require a rebalance.
Being immune to emotions and fear is counting the same thing twice because fear is an emotion. Being immune to exhausted and fatigued is also really the same thing as well since the exhausted condition is really just a worse form of fatigued. Immune to sleep and disease is not really that powerful. Getting a +4 save on mind affecting spells is not as powerful as it sounds since androids are already immune to emotions and fear. The bonus to paralysis is good, but it really does not come up that much. Poison is actually fairly weak so again it is not really over powering. Androids give the impression that they have more defenses than they do because a lot of their defenses are redundant or overlapping.
Compare this to some of the abilities of the “weaker” standard races. Dwarves get a +2 bonus on saves vs all spells and spell like abilities as well as poison. This can be boosted to +4 by taking the feat Steel Soul, and then boosted even further by taking the trait Glory of Old. Getting a +5 on saves vs all spells, spell like abilities, and +3 vs poison is way more powerful than all of the defensive abilities of the android. It does cost a feat and a trait to pull off but that is really a small price to pay for such a huge advantage.
That brings me to my next point. The core races have a lot more material and option than any other race. They can for the most part swap out most of their racial abilities for something else. If I am an elven rogue I can trade away elven magic for silent hunter. Androids as far as I know do not have any alternative racial traits. They also lack any alternative favored class bonuses. All the core races have alternative favored class bonuses for every class. Some of them are incredibly powerful. Humans for example can usually get extra spells know for spontaneous casters.
Instead of focusing on all the stuff the android gets look at how powerful the character really is. Take any class you want and build it with an android and I can build a stronger character with a core race. Don’t get me wrong I think androids are an interesting race but they are really not all that powerful.
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Being immune to emotions and fear is counting the same thing twice because fear is an emotion. Being immune to exhausted and fatigued is also really the same thing as well since the exhausted condition is really just a worse form of fatigued. Immune to sleep and disease is not really that powerful. Getting a +4 save on mind affecting spells is not as powerful as it sounds since androids are already immune to emotions and fear. The bonus to paralysis is good, but it really does not come up that much. Poison is actually fairly weak so again it is not really over powering. Androids give the impression that they have more defenses than they do because a lot of their defenses are redundant or overlapping.
I'm at a loss understanding how being immune to emotion can be both not a big deal and enough to make the +4 mind affecting less relevant. IMO, this covers most of the will save, widely considered as the most critical one.
That brings me to my next point. The core races have a lot more material and option than any other race. They can for the most part swap out most of their racial abilities for something else. [...] All the core races have alternative favored class bonuses for every class. Some of them are incredibly powerful. Humans for example can usually get extra spells know for spontaneous casters.
There is no need to swap anything, all android's abilities are generic enough that they are never irrelevant, regardless of the build.
Favored class bonus are much more of a point (and not well balanced at all in my opinion), but not necessarily so much of a game changer.
Instead of focusing on all the stuff the android gets look at how powerful the character really is. Take any class you want and build it with an android and I can build a...
Fine. Can you build a better magus using core races ? (That's the character's class)
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For a Magus the obvious choice would be an elf. This means the stats for the characters are probably going to be about the same. CHA is the dump stat of the magus, so the android ends up with dangerously low CHA, but the CON penalty hurts the elf. I would say at this point they are about even.
Both characters are immune to sleep, but the android has a few more immunities. Their base saves are the same except the android has a +1 advantage on fortitude saves. Both have the same reflex and will saves. The elf gets a +2 bonus vs enchantments, but the android gets it vs all mind affecting spells as well as paralysis and poison. This is not as big of a deal as it may seem because both characters have good will saves. Making your save by +4 is no different than just making it. At this point the androids other immunities are giving him a slight advantage.
The elf swaps out elven weapon familiarity for arcane focus. Getting the +2 on concentration checks is a definite advantage to a character that is going to be casting spells in melee. The elf also gets elven magic for a +2 bonus to overcome spell resistance, which will stack with spell penetration. Both of these abilities are always on and directly affect the primary function of the magus.
Both characters have low-light vision and a +2 bonus to perception, but the android has darkvision. The android also has a once a day bonus to a d20 roll.
The elf uses his favored class bonus to get extra arcana. By 12th level the elf has 2 additional arcana over the android. This is the equivalent to getting 2 extra feats. Since the elf’s bonus to vs spell resistance is the same as if he took the feat spell penetration the elf is actually up the equivalent of 3 feats.
The android also takes a -4 on sense motive and has a lower CHA which put him at a severe disadvantage in most social circumstances.
The elf also takes the elf only archetype of spell dancer. This means that he no longer gets medium and heavy armor proficiency, but he does get a insight bonus to AC when he would have normally gotten proficiency with the armors. He can also increase his speed and gets a bonus to AC vs attacks of opportunity from moving.
Both characters will be DEX base using the feats to get DEX to damage. Both characters will probably make their saves vs mind affecting spells, but the android does have a slight advantage. If the class was one with a poor will save the value of bonus to saves would be more important.
At this point the android does have some defensive advantages due to his immunities and higher HP. The elf has a better chance to make his concentrating check. His spells also have a better chance to penetrate spell resistance. He has two extra arcana that the android does not. He has a higher AC than the android because of his archetype.
In the end the elf does a better job of being a magus.
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Funny how we can read the same text and reach slightly different conclusions.
For a Magus the obvious choice would be an elf. This means the stats for the characters are probably going to be about the same. CHA is the dump stat of the magus, so the android ends up with dangerously low CHA, but the CON penalty hurts the elf. I would say at this point they are about even.
Not sure how you say this is even. You gain 1 hp per level and +1 fortitude in one cas. You're never going to be great a charisma skills, so the -2 has no effect, except in case of charisma damage/drain, which is not that common (and then, 2 points is not going to make a lot of difference).
Making your save by +4 is no different than just making it. At this point the androids other immunities are giving him a slight advantage.
I don't know in what kind of game you have been playing, but +4 always means 20% more dice faces where you save. The only exception would be if your save is already going to pass in all cases except on a 1, which is not likely to happen here since even though will is a fast save, the magus is not wisdom-based.
You are correct, however, in the fact that the immunities have less value when you are already going to make your save in most cases.
The elf swaps out elven weapon familiarity for arcane focus. Getting the +2 on concentration checks is a definite advantage to a character that is going to be casting spells in melee. The elf also gets elven magic for a +2 bonus to overcome spell resistance, which will stack with spell penetration. Both of these abilities are always on and directly affect the primary function of the magus.
Those are indeed good.
The elf uses his favored class bonus to get extra arcana. By 12th level the elf has 2 additional arcana over the android. This is the equivalent to getting 2 extra feats. Since the elf’s bonus to vs spell resistance is the same as if he took the feat spell penetration the elf is actually up the equivalent of 3 feats.
The FCB is crazy-good, though to be fair it's worth 1 feats (by level 12) as you have to compensate for the HP (~Toughness).
The android also takes a -4 on sense motive and has a lower CHA which put him at a severe disadvantage in most social circumstances.
Doesn't really change anything. You are already not a great talker, and -1 or not isn't going to change that. The sense motive issue is fun and not very threatening as long as you are not alone.
The elf also takes the elf only archetype of spell dancer. This means that he no longer gets medium and heavy armor...
This archetype is good, especially the insight bonus to AC. However, you lose one feat at level 5. Also, remember the bonus vs AoO & speed is at the cost of +n increase on the weapon's enchantment, I'm not sure that's worth it (let's say it's about even).
Trying to put everything on a common scale, I'm going to try counting out of feat equivalence (even though you can't actually take those to compensate)
-2 Con is worth -1,5 feat (toughness, 1/2 Fortitude)
Let's say darkvision is worth -1 feats (aspect of the beast, though it's weaker and hard to get)
+2 Concentration is worth +0,5 feat (combat casting)
+2 vs spell resistance is worth +1 feat (spell penetration)
FCB: 2 feat by level 12, -1 to compensate for the extra hp lost, total 1 feat
Spell dancer: -1 feat (level 5), but crazy bonus to AC (let's call it 2 feats given the loss of armor proficiency), so in the end: +1 feat
Will save: -1 to -2 feats (enchantment is not everything, but mind-affecting + emotion roughly is)
Total : 0 feat.
So I'd say the races are roughly even. I did not count some of the Android's immunities (paralysis, poison) and emotion only as a +4, but the FCB and armor advantage is going to get better with time. Seems like it is achieving the same level of power, though without having to look so much into how to opimize, which is maybe why I got the impression it was way too strong. Or the magus is not the right metric to compare, but that's what was chosen anyway.