Monk vows, I have a few questions

[Bober]

Hi,
I'm looking into vows for my monk, and there are a few things I'm not sure i'm getting right:

1. Vow of Poverty:
"[...] Five of these items must be of plain and simple make, though one can be of some value [...]"
What's the value of that last item? What's considered "some" value?

Also, without magic items (or with only one at best), how do you keep up with the rest of the party, in order not to become useless?

2. Vow of Silence:
How do skills like Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate work with it? Would you make up some rule, forbid it, or just let it go like for any other character?

3. Vow of Truth:
Would a monk stay silent if someone else around him is lying (and he knows it)? Or would he intervene by telling the truth, even if not asked directly (assuming he doesn't have the vow of silence too)

4. Vow of Peace:
"The monk must strive to attain peace and may only use violence as a last resort. [...] If attacked, he must use the fight defensively action or the total defense action for the first 2 rounds."
Are you limited to those two actions, or can you do other non-damaging actions?
Could you throw a tanglefoot bag? Could you do a combat manoeuvre that doesn't do any damage (such as reposition, steal, trip, or a simple grapple)? Could you roll an intimidate check?

I'd like to hear your opinions about it, and any advice on how play it better (both build and RP wise)

[pulseoptional]

1: I had a Poverty monk. His "item of value" was a bag of marbles (that the DM later swapped out for a near-artifact level item, but that was his call.) We ran it more as "personal" value over monetary. If you wanted to attach a GP value to it, though, probably no more than a Masterwork item (enchantments up to DM-fiat.)

2: For Bluff and Intimidate, I would rule that you could use your body language to replace talking. Diplomacy could work with that too, but not as easily?

[Claxon]

1) You don't take vow of poverty because it's as bad as you think it is and isn't worth the benefit (one point of ki).

2) They work if you can come up with a way to do so without speaking. Diplomacy I probably wouldn't allow at all. Bluff...I would probably only allow you to feint (point in a direction to distract someone). Intimidate can easily be imagined for visuals so I would let it work fine.

3) Vow of truth, the monk isn't obligated to prevent companions from lying. Only hthemself. If someone asks the monk, the monk could reveal the truth or remain silent.

4) The way the vow is written, you're limited to those actions. But it's probably not the intent. Other actions that do not harm or hinder the enemy are probably acceptable.

[David knott 242]

Vow of Poverty would be an excellent vow for a campaign that uses Automatic Bonus Progression from Pathfinder Unchained, but otherwise I wouldn't take it.

[Bober]

I think it's intended as personal value, but I was wondering if there is a price limit. A heirloom item could be a +5 full enchanted weapon, or a simple walking stick.
I guess a MW cost is a fair price.

While I agree Intimidate is pretty easy to imagine without speech, I'm not sure about bluff and diplomacy. I guess Diplomacy could work as flirting or having friendly manners. But I hardly see Bluff working. It's true that you can simply not talk, so technically you are not lying if someone asks you "Did you see who killed..." or stuff like that, so it would be pretty limited.

It's a shame VoP is so bad :( It would make for a nice RP. Never heard of the Automatic Bonus Progression you speak of. I'll look for it, thanks!

I guess I'll ask my future DM what he thinks are appropriate actions you can take in the first two rounds then. I'd still like to hear from more players and DM alike about their experiences eventually.

[Azten]

When asked why the Vow of Poverty wasn't better the reply from a developer replied "because poverty sucks" so they literally made an option no one would take. It's a pretty big waste of space in my opinion. :/

[Bober]

I was looking deeper into Vow of Poverty, and I stumbled upon the item creation feat "Inscribe Magical Tattoo". I didn't even know it was a thing.

Does it allow you to have the same effect as a wondrous item, but by getting a tattoo?

[james knowles]

Vow of Poverty: 3.5 Vow of Poverty was so ridiculously broken. It was like gaining the automatic bonus progression on crack, but only for your character and not everyone else, for the cost of a single feat.

The current VoP sucks, 'cuz like what almost always happens when they bring out the nerf hammer, they go too far in the opposite direction instead of finding a reasonable balance.

As for the "some value" of your 1 item. I tend to let the PC go nuts and not put any limits on it (other than level appropriate of course). I mean, you're gonna be so far behind everyone else item-wise, might as well have something cool to show for it. Legacy items that level up and gain powers over time are excellent to use in situations like this.

Vow of Silence: It states that the monk is allowed to use gestures and motions to communicate, which to me implies that all the skills you listed should work fine...although with perhaps a +5 or +10 DC modifier depending on the situation.

Vow of Truth: as written, the vow only applies to the monk. Your example would be a role-playing option depending on his alignment and personal beliefs.

Vow of Peace: as written, it only allows for the 2 listed options. However, I would allow any non-violent option (such as those you suggested) as well.

[Azten]

The 3.5 Vow of Poverty, for two feats, actually put you behind Wealth by Level. It made you weaker.

[Claxon]

Yeah the Vow of Poverty from 3.5 made for an interesting character that was still sort of usable, but the bonuses you got still didn't match up to what a character could buy with WBL.

Now, in Pathfinder if your GM and group use Automatic Bonus Progression for everyone, you might be able to get by with Vow of Poverty for a while without it being too big a hindrance.