Ezren Spell Sage Display Power


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Hello!
I tried to search the forum to find an answer to this question but i couldnt find it.
His last power:
"When you would discard a spell that has the Arcane trait for its power, you may display it instead. At the end of your turn, recharge all such spells"

Does that mean i can use one attack spell have it displayed and use it for the next combat. Because on how display works in the rules it says.
"unless stated otherwise ;the card's power funtcion as long as it is displayed"

Sure that you have to discard it might be that stated otherwise, but then also his power kicks in again and he doesnt discard it.

I been playing as he is not allowed to use the same attack spell for all his combats, just we noticed we might have been playing it wrong.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No. You can only discard/recharge/etc cards from your hand unless the power explicitly says otherwise. Cards that function while displayed explicitly say so.

MM rulebook, p9 wrote:
If you are instructed to play, reveal, display, discard, recharge, bury, banish, or otherwise manipulate a card, that card must come from your hand unless otherwise specified.

That is the key rule at play here. Every spell I can think of instructs you to discard, display, bury, banish, or recharge it. For example, "For your combat check, discard this card to use your Arcane skill + 2d4."

Since the card does not specify otherwise, you must discard it from your hand. As such, if it is not in your hand (such as when it is displayed), you cannot use that power.

Some spells may have powers like "While displayed, for your combat check use your Arcane skill + 1d6." Such cards can be played while they are displayed, because it tells you they can. Activating such an ability on a displayed card counts as playing that card (so it counts as your 1 spell allowed for the check).


Not sure if you are the same person, or if it is amazing timing of similar questions, but the same question was asked on BGG. I'm copying this from there.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1776183/ezren-spell-sage

Let's take Acid Jet for an example.

Acid Jet wrote:

For your combat check, discard this card to use your Arcane or Divine skill + 1d6. Add an additional 1d6 if the monster has the Construct or Ooze trait.

After playing this card, if you do not have the Arcane or Divine skill, banish it; otherwise, succeed at an Arcane or Divine 8 check to recharge this card instead of discarding it.

So, the power is that you can play it by discarding it for your combat check. But...

MM Rulebook p9 wrote:
If you are instructed to play, reveal, display, discard, recharge, bury, banish, or otherwise manipulate a card, that card must come from your hand unless otherwise specified.

So, you can't use the Acid Jet power if it isn't in your hand. You can't play Acid Jet from the displayed position any more than you can play it from the top of your discard pile.

Spell Sage's "display" power is about eliminating recharge checks and instead automatically recharging them. The trade off is cycling your cards with in your own turn.

As skizzerz says, the powers that continue to function tend to be obvious by saying things like "While displayed..."


So, would you get numerous re-uses of something like Sphere of Fire?
It gets displayed then used for your combat check, including triggering the discard for an extra die, which the new ability changes to being displayed.

IOW, does a card care that it was displayed using its own text?


Iceman wrote:
IOW, does a card care that it was displayed using its own text?

By RAI - it probably does. I seem to remember a similar discussion about Olenjack and displayed allies...

By RAW - yes, you can absolutely abuse the hell out of a Sphere spell.
(Personally, I find it cool and charming, when a new character's powers are revealed to have an unexpectedly powerful synergy with an 'old' card; I'm sure however, there will be those, who'll view said synergy as cheap and imbalanced: see also discussions about Class Deck Damiel and Myrtle recharging spells that bury for effect)


Thank you. That was the example I couldn't think of in the BGG thread.

Sphere of Fire wrote:
Display this card. While displayed, for your combat check, you may use your Arcane or Divine skill + 1d6; you may additionally discard this card to add another 1d6. At the end of your turn, if you do not have either the Arcane or Divine skill, banish this card; otherwise, attempt an Arcane or Divine 9 check. If you succeed, recharge this card; if you fail, discard it.

RAW, it looks like as Spell Sage Ezren I can discard Sphere of Fire to play my Arcane + 2d6 on a combat check, then display it using my role power -- then discard it again, and display it again, any number of times during my turn.

It looks that way, but a similar issue came up with Olenjack, and Vic proposed this solution:

Not-yet-implemented fix wrote:
If you display a boon for any reason other than playing it, ignore its powers.

This isn't an official rule yet -- so you could either obey it, since it is Paizo's intended direction, or enjoy the current exploit until the FAQ is issued.

(Note: as Vic says in the thread, this stipulates "boon" so that cohorts are unaffected.)

EDIT: Longshot ninja'd me.


Also, responding to the OP:

See Vic's clarification of "the card's powers function as long as it's displayed"

Vic wrote:
The rules under "Playing a Card" say that cards you play by displaying them "function" while it's displayed, but that does not mean that every word is always in effect as long as they're displayed—it means that anything on them *could* be active. You have to read the card you're displaying and evaluate what things are active and what things are not.


Even Vic's proposed rule change wouldn't stop Spell Sage Ezren from playing Sphere of Fire endlessly. Spell Sage Ezren would be displaying for the reason of playing when he uses the "discard for extra dice" power. So you could not ignore its powers.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Even Vic's proposed rule change wouldn't stop Spell Sage Ezren from playing Sphere of Fire endlessly. Spell Sage Ezren would be displaying for the reason of playing when he uses the "discard for extra dice" power. So you could not ignore its powers.

I see what you are saying. I think you see the subtlety.

Spell Sage Ezren has to ignore the powers on Sphere of Fire, unless he displayed it by playing it.
When he discards the Sphere of Fire for its power, he is playing Sphere of Fire. But then he uses his role power and displays it.
One could argue that he did not display Sphere of Fire by playing it -- rather he used his role power to display it.

The subtlety is the "When you would.... instead" language. Does this mean that displaying is what Spell Sage Ezren did in order to play Sphere of Fire? I'd argue against that interpretation. But I'm not certain.

Here is the "playing a card" rule:

MM rulebook p.8 wrote:
Playing a card means using a power on that card by performing an action with that card that is specified by the card itself. Choosing to activate a power on a displayed card also counts as playing it.


Don't have the card in front of me, but if indeed the text

Sphere of Fire wrote:
Display this card. While displayed, for your combat check....

is written as a single paragraph, to me it means the "While displayed..." only triggers if you indeed did the "Display this card" as part of the card's power, not the character's power".

If it was written
Wrong Sphere of Fire wrote:

Display this card.

While displayed, for your combat check...

Then indeed we would have an issue.

IMHO

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