|
Setup/Question:
Players have life bubble and message cast on them and are submerged in 10' of water. Does message still work within the spell range back to the caster, who is not submerged in water, since a PC with life bubble can whisper underwater?
Discussion:
Per RAW, message states that it is blocked by: magical silence, 1' of stone, 1" of metal (or thin sheet of lead), or 3' of wood or dirt. Simple RAW would be that since it doesn't say water, water doesn't block it.
However, the list of things that block it are things that block propagation of sound through material into the adjacent air (as would 10' of water). So, does water belong in the list?
Also, other than the fact that water acts as a melee barrier, cover probably doesn't really enter into it, since a closed door (or even a familiar satchel) that is not 3' of wood or 1' of stone provides total cover, but does not stop message per the spell description. While sound does travel through water, albeit attenuated by water's density, it does not travel well through water into the air (and certainly not into the air at any great distance or with any clarity).
(Also, to prevent any confusion from a possible "finger-pointing" discussion, which I would prefer to leave out of this discussion, the assumption is that the finger-pointing aspect of message is to initially cast the spell at the targets to which you point, and is not required to whisper the message to/from active targets. Message says: "To speak a message, you must mouth the words and whisper." (nothing about finger-pointing there) )
Thanks - interested to hear your replies. In the heat of the moment, I ruled that it didn't work, but I'm not sure I would rule that way after thinking about it, since RAW states otherwise, unless the list were to include water (which maybe it should) along with other liquid/viscous materials (lava with fire resistance/immunity, air or life bubble and message, etc.).
Also, if anyone knows of a ruling on this issue, please link it! I wasn't able to find anything. Thx!
Water doesn't block it. While water does normally hinder sound significantly, so too does being over a hundred feet from overhearing a whisper. Conversely, it would be a lot more possible to hear someone adjacent to you but blocked by a thin layer of lead than it would to hear them at that distance.
Message operates magically. The magic is not hindered by water. You whisper, and anyone within ordinary mundane distances can hear you, but so too does anybody joined to hearing your whispers.
I would strongly caution against using real world physics to adjudicate magical effects. How well water carries sound compared to air is completely irrelevant. The spell does what the spell does regardless of how absurd that is in reality because it's magic. The spell explicitly designates what materials will block it and under what conditions. Outside of those it works.
I would strongly caution against using real world physics to adjudicate magical effects. How well water carries sound compared to air is completely irrelevant. The spell does what the spell does regardless of how absurd that is in reality because it's magic. The spell explicitly designates what materials will block it and under what conditions. Outside of those it works.
This, don't try to involve real world physics.
Message says "You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies."
It also says "To speak a message, you must mouth the words and whisper."
If you can whisper underwater, then it works. If you can't, then it doesn't.
I recommend the Air Bubble spell in conjunction with message if you intend to use it underwater.
The materials listed are the same as the ones that block Detect Magic.
T think what it comes down to is that there are moderately inexpensive ways of blocking these 0th level spells, either by typical defenses (typical dungeon walls of 3' of dirt or 1' of stone) or more actively placed defenses (1" of metal, or a thin sheet of lead).
Thus, these limitations are not intended to be physics based, but based on 'laws of magic' intended to keep low level spells from being to powerful... as they are, both GMs and PCs can prevent their use with fairly mundane precautions (including those that would prevent easy entry by mundane means, such as thick walls).
|
|
As stated above, I agree with the RAW interpretation that it works, since it is not excluded by the spell, and, specifically, in conjunction with air bubble/life bubble. In the absence of ruling to the contrary (where there is none of which I am aware), it works.
The 2nd part of the question for additional hypothetical discussion for anyone interested is: Does water belong in the list of materials that will block magical effects? (maybe not rules forum related, however)
The point about detect magic is a good one (and also re: detect evil)...and all of these spell descriptions originate in legacy/3.5/OGL land.
Comparatively, I could cast life bubble or air bubble, then cast burrow and go digging through the dirt, which is only marginally more dense than water (1.5 g/cm3 vs. 1.0 g/cm3, ok but no physics allowed!)(or maybe I'm on the Elemental Plane of Earth). And, I could whisper. Is it really that different vs. being underwater (or on the Elemental Plane of Water)? (putting RAW aside for a moment and bearing in mind that it's just a hypothetical question, since dirt is included in the list)
So, what do you think was the basis for inclusion of materials in the list if not things that would block sound (and considering that it is legacy/3.5)? I'm just curious.
Also, re: mixed support of RAW, there is the CRB aquatic terrain info that says that casting works normally, but that functionality of certain spells might be subject to GM discretion. Some spells explicitly say they don't work underwater - like obscuring mist - but which spells should be subject to GM discretion (again, hypothetical)? Is there a list that has accumulated over time?
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
And, what about lava? Even though it's molten stone, it's not excluded by message. What about quicksand? It's liquid sand or dirt and not excluded - should you exclude it or, maybe, double the thickness? What about a pool of liquid metal that hides magical treasure, like in Emerald Spire? Should that stop detect magic? Probably so, since only 1" of metal is required. The PCs have to dive for it. Should message work on the Plane of Water and fail in certain circumstances on the Plane of Earth? I guess so.
There's RAW, there's hypothetical discussion, and ultimately in the corner cases, GM discretion. I appreciate the discussion - kind of interesting.
So, what do you think was the basis for inclusion of materials in the list if not things that would block sound (and considering that it is legacy/3.5)? I'm just curious.
The rules for using magic underwater are very limited in scope, but, short story, do not block casting or line of effect.
Even fire based spells can work underwater, with the right die roll.