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So about Gaedren (or "Gay Adrian" as my group call him) :
Is the idea that he is surprisingly easy for them to defeat? What with his age and limited armour etc.
I am not talking about the games where some people have made him a bigger villain
I ask because I was thinking of rebuilding him due my group ending up with a 30 point buy equivalent due to rolls and my hatred of NPC class levels not reducing CR unless they are the only levels a character has (you cannot convince me an Expert 4/rogue 2 is the same CR as a Rogue 6)
However my changes (Ranger 3/Unchained Rogue 3) with bumping dex and con almost double his HP, and take his melee damage from d4-2 to d4+3, with an extra d6 sneak attack and favoured enemy human on top
I feel I might have gone too far in the other direction...
But I don't want to give him any more than 3 rogue levels a 3d6 sneak at level 1 is too much (2d6 is pushing it but i don't expect him to get it)
What have other people done? And how have groups reacted to, as I have seen it put, quickly "curb stomping" the object of their vengeance (presumably in about 2 rounds) ?
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I hate to say it, but from reading your other recent posts, there's a better than average chance that your group is a textbook example of the Gaedren Lamm Firecracker: burns brightly with their mutual hatred of Gaedren Lamm who's built up to be a big deal, and then immediately explodes following his death, leaving only the ashes of your campaign behind to remain. :(
This is both your fault and your players fault. Your players are to blame for wanting to be a bunch of selfish evil asshats whose sole purpose in existence is to make your life as a DM harder because instead of them naturally wanting to go through the adventure path you're going to have to coax them. You are to blame for letting them get away with it, and not putting your foot down and saying "no, try again" at character creation when they came up with their character concept.
Unfortunately, what you have to work with is pretty much set in stone at this point. Making Gaedren a bigger villain could buy you more time to draw the party into the world and convince them that they're better off working together, and whatever personal plots you set up for each one just so conveniently intersect, so they might as well keep working together after Gaedren's dead. But it sounds like you don't want to do that, and that's fine.
However, no matter how challenging or not you make the fight with Gaedren Lamm (personally I agree NPC classes are a useless vestigial abomination that should be done away with - does Lamm *have* to be 6th level? Maybe you just make him a 3rd rogue/1st ranger and be done with it), what's going to happen 30 seconds after his dead body hits the floor is your swashbuckler is going to lose all motivation now that his nemesis is dead, your elf noble is going to go looking for ways to line his own pockets while the stupid humans murder each other, the Shaoti is going to laugh maniacally while the city of his hated enemy burns to the ground around him, and *maybe* the Slayer sticks around to try to fix it?
You've really got your work cut out for you here. As I see it you've got pretty much four options.
1) Go draconian railroad, where you're the train conductor and anyone who doesn't want to follow along with the AP plot line gets thrown off the train. Permanently. Make your *players* figure out how their guy goes along with saving the city - or they don't and you shrug and say "okay. Start making a new character then - your guy goes off and screws around in the background, never to be seen again." Presumably you're the one who spent money to buy this AP. You're the one who has to spent hours prepping for the game and trying to make it a fun experience despite your players' best efforts to ruin it all in a fiery off-the-rails train crash. You don't have to suffer their foolery gladly.
2) Bend over backwards and drive yourself crazy trying to bend the entire world around these very disparate characters *who don't even LIKE EACH OTHER* to somehow get them to follow the rough outline of the AP in spite of it, probably with them only going along grudgingly.
3) Stop running CotCT in everything but name. You have a bunch of disparate antisocial a!#+%$*s who hate each other. A lot of fun stories have been made about a bunch of disparate antisocial a+&~!$!s who hate each other. Abandon the metaplot of the AP in favor of just making up your own story built specifically around these guys and their antics. Use the characters and plot points of the AP as touchstones and ideas to search as the framework for what's going on in the city around your PCs. They don't want to help the City Guard? That's fine - the City Guard is now considered a failed organization and the nobility is calling for Cressida Kroft to step down. Through dumb luck or backalley dealing, the Slayer is put up as one of the major candidates for replacing her - the elf noble can scheme to help him or hinder him, the Shaoti can try to convince him to help his people, and the swashbuckler can come along for the ride.
4) Say "f#&! it", do nothing except wait for the inevitable implosion, consider the money you spent on CotCT a lesson, and go buy Hell's Vengeance for them to play through where they can play out all of their antisocial fantasies - just make sure they make compatible characters this time!
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Thanks for the in depth response. I very much appreciate it.
I made sure I explained with a hint of spoilers that Gaedren should not be the sole focus of characters lives.
I also explained at the start how I was extremely disappointed there was not one Good alignment in the group (in fairness I kind of the Trust the maturity of the role playing of the only one playing an out and out evil character). But you are right I wasn't firm on what they should create because I didn't want to be.
As to point 4 I considered Hell's Vengeance and skull and shackles for a long time but opted away. From what I saw HV got significantly varying write ups from poor and too rail road based (and I know CoCT also has a rail road) and Skull and Shackles just seemed like it was going to be 2 or 3 sessions of knocking my players unconscious with whips for being idiots (not a lot of fun after a while). And again much more mixed write ups than CoCT gets.
>>> Indeed the main problems I read about from Curse write ups are: the setup and leaving Korvosa in books 5 and 6
I am going to try for a merge of most of your suggestions (just note number 2) where I will talk to the players again about the general conceit of the game and how it might fit with character motivations (maybe even othering some out of character spoilers).
Then I will plow ahead and see what happens. The current plan is for shorter, evening sessions in the week so it will 1 or 2 until Gaedren is dead (with how they deal with the orphans an early hint). Then play the early stages of anarchy and the queen's offer and see where they are blowing by that point - then I can either get new characters or whisk them Cheliax or the Shackles
- Of course the big problem with Point 1 you mention is that it requires at least pseudo-spoilers to actually give the players a chance of creating a character that fits because the current intro tees you up for vengeance against Gaedren and that is that
That is where I say "your character has to care about the city and not want to run and adventure at the first sign of trouble" - and rely on the players paying attention :(
One other thing that I'll add which was a problem I ran into when we played Runelords is the point buy.
These early APs were designed for (IIRC) a 15 point buy for the PCs. If they're too high, they'll destroy everything without getting touched causing you to have to adjust every single encounter.
If it's not too late (depending on the maturity of your group) I would suggest reducing it to at least a 20 point buy system.
This. I am in two APs that are both just about to finish up. Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Ed., and Way of the Wicked. Both are excellent, but have needed quite a bit of tinkering by our GMs. You see, all our PCs are built on 25 points, and we have six mains in each AP; we definitely like our stats bonuses. But now that we are reaching the upper levels, those comfortable bonuses are becoming ridiculous; everyone has a +6 enhancement to their main stat, and we're starting to see inherent bonuses...
I plan to implement a two-fold fix in the next go-round. Probably 20 point buy, and a house rule that has been around these boards for quite awhile. Alas, I have no idea who mentioned it first...or even last. Instead of gaining an ability point every fourth level, PCs gain 1 point buy point. They continue to use the point buy chart in the CRB to increase their base ability scores. This seems like a lot more ability points, and it is...at the lower scores. It entices the players to spend the points as they gain them, naturally putting them where they can make a more immediate benefit. Thus, spreading out the stat gains, and filling out the PCs a little more, instead of racing to 30!
Also, I plan to eliminate or modify enhancement devices, or modify...somehow.
All the APs and modules are designed for a 15-point buy party. (IIRC, it's only the Pathfinder Society scenarios that are designed for 20-point buy characters.)
Also, the APs and modules are not designed for super-optimised characters and extremely experienced players. With my two AP groups, I have got to the point where I routinely max out the foes' hit points and in some cases re-build NPCs using options from a greater variety of Paizo sourcebooks (e.g., unchaining Rogues, Monks, and Barbarians).
All the APs and modules are designed for a 15-point buy party. (IIRC, it's only the Pathfinder Society scenarios that are designed for 20-point buy characters.)
Also, the APs and modules are not designed for super-optimised characters and extremely experienced players. With my two AP groups, I have got to the point where I routinely max out the foes' hit points and in some cases re-build NPCs using options from a greater variety of Paizo sourcebooks (e.g., unchaining Rogues, Monks, and Barbarians).
Agreed. Our RotR GM has told us many times of the failings of the design of encounters and critters, especially in the early chapters. It was the first AP, and written for D&D 3.5. It is quite understandable, and the story and content are top-notch.
I fully intend to do as you do for CoCT. The anniversary edition is well done, and a couple NPCs are actually built with later materials. But, I just got the Adventurer's guide, and there are multiple organizations in there that feature in CoCT. As I read those sections, I couldn't stop thinking of converting a bunch of NPCs...
Lighten up Francis
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Eh, perhaps I was a little harsh, but this is an issue I've seen reported on these boards over and over again. It's a serious problem and I wanted to make sure that Lanathar was aware that he was going to have a tough time keeping his current party together without drastic action.
And I really do dislike it when players give their DM a hard time by being contrary and difficult for the lols. Maybe that's not what happened here, and they just each separately thought they were making an interesting character fitting with the setting. But even if their intentions were all pure, with all of them pulling in a different direction with their characters the game would explode. CotCT just cannot survive that sort of party mismatch right at the start of the game without the DM shuffling the board from what's written or without the players giving a little and going along with the game. More often, each player says "I'm not gonna be the one to fold", they all pull hard in their direction, and the game explodes and then no one has a good time.
Sorry if I offended you.
Eh, perhaps I was a little harsh, but this is an issue I've seen reported on these boards over and over again. It's a serious problem and I wanted to make sure that Lanathar was aware that he was going to have a tough time keeping his current party together without drastic action.
And I really do dislike it when players give their DM a hard time by being contrary and difficult for the lols. Maybe that's not what happened here, and they just each separately thought they were making an interesting character fitting with the setting. But even if their intentions were all pure, with all of them pulling in a different direction with their characters the game would explode. CotCT just cannot survive that sort of party mismatch right at the start of the game without the DM shuffling the board from what's written or without the players giving a little and going along with the game. More often, each player says "I'm not gonna be the one to fold", they all pull hard in their direction, and the game explodes and then no one has a good time.
Sorry if I offended you.
You may come off a little heavy, but I took the meaning of your posts as firm, but fair.
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When I was a player in the original CotCT I felt it was very anti-climatic to kill him in the very first part of the adventure. This guy was supposed to a nemesis that we picked traits for, should have been more to it. I am going to be starting to run the new version as soon as we are done Emerald Spire (currently on the 14th level). So sometime this summer.
I have rewritten the Gaedren Lamm story so that he is not actually killed at the Old Fishery. He will be there, but will have a couple more henchmen with him in the underside of the fishery. I am adding a secret door that Gaedren will use to escape after telling the henchmen to "kill these upstarts".
Just before the execution of Trinia, the characters will get a new lead on Gaerdren and find him at a second location and fight him there. I think that more of a fitting end to Gaedren than an early exit. Maybe he will escape them and return later, or one could hope. I have removed one of the expert levels, changed the rogue levels to unchained and added a one, removed the limp, and made him middle-aged.
Gaedren Lamm CR 6
XP 1,600
Male middle-aged human (Chelaxian) expert 2/unchained rogue 5 ( Pathfinder Unchained 20)
NE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 33 (7d8-2)
Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +6
Defensive Abilities danger sense +1, evasion, uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 dagger +9 (1d4+4/19-20)
Ranged mwk hand crossbow +7 (1d4/19-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack (unchained) +3d6
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Tactics
—————
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 15
Base Atk +4; CMB +2; CMD 16
Feats Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Skill Focus (Bluff), Weapon
Finesse, Weapon Focus (dagger)
Skills Acrobatics +12, Appraise +12, Bluff +15, Disguise +9, Handle Animal +12, Intimidate +10,
Linguistics +8, Perception +12, Sense Motive +12, Sleight of Hand +12, Stealth +12, Swim +6
Languages Common, Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Varisian
SQ debilitating injury: bewildered, debilitating injury: disoriented, debilitating injury: hampered, rogue talents
(combat trick, weapon training), trapfinding +2
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds , potion of invisibility (2), potion of shield of faith +2 ; Other
Gear +1 leather armor , +2 dagger , mwk hand crossbow with 10 bolts, ring of protection +1 , brass key
(unlock all doors in the fishery), rust iron key (unlock the strongbox in area a14)
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Special Abilities
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Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Danger Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Debilitating Injury: Bewildered -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes AC pen (more vs.
striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Disoriented -2/-4 (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage takes attack pen (more
vs. striker) for 1 rd.
Debilitating Injury: Hampered (Ex) Foe who takes sneak attack damage has speed halved (and can't 5
ft step) for 1 rd.
Evasion (Ex) If succeed on Reflex save for half dam, take none instead.
Improved Feint You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +3d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Trapfinding +2 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed.
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Informative thread.
I'm about to kick off the hardcover of CotCT. With the following included, all of which are aimed at avoiding a situation like the OP is facing:
- Mandatory that each PC cares about Korvosa. And cares quite a lot. This is for them to figure out how, via their backstory. With guidance from me. Each will be given a list of NPCs they know in the city, and their connection to them and history. Some will be from the AP, others will be new as needed.
- No evil characters allowed, either.
- Gaedren Lamm must be known by the PCs and disliked, but he's secondary in their backstory. Connection to Korvosa is first.
- All my PCs will already know each other (I'm using the Phase Trio system from Fate to create linked backstories)
- Extending the adventure at the beginning to create a sense of and connection to the 'normal Korvosa'. I'm using module 'Murder's Mark' (level 1 module) at the start, stitching that into the main story. So the 'events' in Korvosa will only start to kick off after 3-5 sessions. If you know the module I expect you can see how it neatly ties into Lamm and his activities (very straightforwards).
Informative thread.
I'm about to kick off the hardcover of CotCT. With the following included, all of which are aimed at avoiding a situation like the OP is facing:
- Mandatory that each PC cares about Korvosa. And cares quite a lot. This is for them to figure out how, via their backstory. With guidance from me. Each will be given a list of NPCs they know in the city, and their connection to them and history. Some will be from the AP, others will be new as needed.
- No evil characters allowed, either.
- Gaedren Lamm must be known by the PCs and disliked, but he's secondary in their backstory. Connection to Korvosa is first.
- All my PCs will already know each other (I'm using the Phase Trio system from Fate to create linked backstories)
- Extending the adventure at the beginning to create a sense of and connection to the 'normal Korvosa'. I'm using module 'Murder's Mark' (level 1 module) at the start, stitching that into the main story. So the 'events' in Korvosa will only start to kick off after 3-5 sessions. If you know the module I expect you can see how it neatly ties into Lamm and his activities (very straightforwards).
I'm starting this next week and I'm curious how your start in Murder's Mark turned out? I have coarse knowledge of the module's events, but I not totally sure how to tie it in? I'm thinking I'll do something like this between every book, just to keep them on a medium XP track (or not, if we slow down too much). The first part of book 1 seems like a rush of XP, to me, and I've seen the MM suggestion more than once.
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I started my CotCT campaign with parts of Murder's Mark to give the PCs more time to build that connection with Korvosa. It helped that one of my PCs had in her background that a carnival bought her from Lamm when she was 12, so that was an obvious connection. Other changes I made:
* Gaedren is not at the fishery when the PCs arrive. Yargin is instead the big bad there. PCs will find a bunch of loot and the brooch, but not Lamm's ledger.
* Added St. Caspieran's Salvation from Second Darkness (replaced Baltias with a NPC from one of the players' background, who works for Lamm). They need to pick Gaedren's trail there.
* Gaedren is holing up in the Arkona warehouse that later becomes the Hospice of the Blessed Maiden. It is there that PCs will find his ledger and the key-shaped dagger.
The Umbra Carnival comes to Korvosa and sets up right outside the city walls, near North Bridge. Before the first session, I gave each PC their reasons for being there, taken from their backgrounds. Played the module pretty much as written for Part One, then shepherded them all to a noon performance under the big top, featuring Jherizhana and Phardaen. As the performance ends, screams sound from behind the big top, so the PCs go to investigate (cue first murder).
What really happened:
* Yargin used mutagen on Giggles to create the claw marks at the crime scene (both for Archivin and for Sister Esrelda)
* Yargin hired Shoanti tribeless as muscle, who are addicted to Shiver. They were given the key and ordered to rob the moneylender’s vault
* One of them falls into the trap (Walks-in-Moonlight - 'Moonie'). The others are Slash, Bear, Mad Newt. Moonie spills the beans on being hired in exchange for being rescued from the pit trap.
* Archivin’s wife has a list of the items that were stolen. Some of these match the ones found in the fishery.
* The next day, Lamm’s Lambs cut purses as a distraction
* Sister Esrelda is a cleric of Desna who wants to mediate between the carnival folks and enraged Korvosans. She publicly declares that she will get to the bottom of this, then enters the sphinx tent, where she is murdered by Yargin, [PC- connected NPC] and Giggles wearing clown disguises
* Filton Legg was going to come forward as witness, so Yargin and Giggles kill him.
I don't plan on doing the rest of the module, as it would complicate matters unnecessarily. The motive for Lamm and Yargin to arrange all this is the same as in the book - they wanted to expand their operations while pining the blame on the carnival folks.