Asura and the First World?

[Davia D]

The origin of Asura is that they are the 'mistakes of the gods'. Origin wise, this leaves when they were made very wide open- various gods have existed for a long time, after all.

However, it strikes me that we know a specific period when the gods were super into experimentation- the First World, preparation for the material plane and mortal life.

And it'd also fit into the Asura focusing in on mortals as their objects-of-revenge against the gods. More-so than if they were failed attempts to make angels and other Outsider-servants.

So I'm wondering, are Asura from around this time period? Maybe a prior batch of experiments right before the fey, or even made at the same time as the fey as part of the same experimental process, just less successfully?

[dharkus]

they could be - I don't know if there's any further lore on it atm - as they're fiends I think - the upcoming book of the damned could have more info on them though

[MMCJawa]

I think in general they are the result of gods messing up. There certainly could be asuras that were created as part of earlier attempts to mold reality, but my sense from Bestiary 3 is that they do not have a single shared origin, but the different types all are results of different divine mistakes. So they are more joined in purpose than ancestry.

[Davia D]

MMCJawa wrote:

I think in general they are the result of gods messing up. There certainly could be asuras that were created as part of earlier attempts to mold reality, but my sense from Bestiary 3 is that they do not have a single shared origin, but the different types all are results of different divine mistakes. So they are more joined in purpose than ancestry.

So some could've been all the way back in the time when the Maelstrom and the Abyss were about it (and yea, there were gods mentioned back then), while others more recent, in your view?

Looking at the origins of individual types, most seemed to specifically tied to the failures of *religions*, which'd place them at fairly young (since that'd link them more to mortal worship).

[MMCJawa]

I think by default they are tied to the failings of Gods moreso than religions. So as long as there are gods around, you could have Asuras?

I mean they must be pretty old...IIRC I heard somewhere that they ruled or at least occupied Hell before the Devils showed up. So they are not spring chickens

[doc the grey]

Davia D wrote:

The origin of Asura is that they are the 'mistakes of the gods'. Origin wise, this leaves when they were made very wide open- various gods have existed for a long time, after all.

However, it strikes me that we know a specific period when the gods were super into experimentation- the First World, preparation for the material plane and mortal life.

And it'd also fit into the Asura focusing in on mortals as their objects-of-revenge against the gods. More-so than if they were failed attempts to make angels and other Outsider-servants.

So I'm wondering, are Asura from around this time period? Maybe a prior batch of experiments right before the fey, or even made at the same time as the fey as part of the same experimental process, just less successfully?

My assumption is that the Asura predate the first world. They were likely old before the gods that sat down to make that place were new. As for their focus on mortals that might be just the limitations of the mortal perspective. Asura attack and predate on humans and so they think they are specially targeted while in reality the might also be targeting angels, devils, etc. as well. Could also be that humans are also easier as a group to cause major lasting damage to than other species. Lighting a continent of lemures on fire might suck but is likely more annoying to devils than doing the same to say humans of any stripe.

The other thing to think about is whether or not new Asura's are created and if so whether it is a process like that of other outsiders with souls processed into Asuras or if they're created through more mortal means, or even a third option? If either the 1st or 3rd are still true the processes that make these creatures are likely still ongoing.

Hope that helps.

[Adjoint]

My theory is that the asuras were created before god figured out that they need to sort the souls by alignment before trying to make outsiders out of them. Only after the gods learned from this mistake, the gods created various planes in the Outer Sphere and Pharasma took the job of the judge of the souls.

[Davia D]

doc the grey wrote:

The other thing to think about is whether or not new Asura's are created and if so whether it is a process like that of other outsiders with souls processed into Asuras or if they're created through more mortal means, or even a third option? If either the 1st or 3rd are still true the processes that make these creatures are likely still ongoing.

Hope that helps.

The descriptions of the Asura seem to me to indicate more can be made. Obviously Triputrasura can be created by stronger Asura, but also their descriptor says 'making them gives Asurendra sages the raw material to make more powerful Asura' and of course some among the Asurendra have an ability to that effect, molding them together into one stronger.

And in their general description it talks about how when they destroy or corrupt holy places, they use the records and histories of them in order to destroy other bastions of faith, and 'thus, asuras spread.'

The original Upasunda were followers of a person who achieved godhood and, feeling abandoned and seeking immortality, sought out an Asura Rana, who transformed them, so the Rana also have the power to directly transform people, at least ones who feel betrayed by the gods.

So there's no mention of soul processing directly, but *some* among the greatest can either create lesser ones/make them greater, transform properly minded mortals into Asura, plus possibly something implied in the destruction and corruption of religious bastions- I imagine convincing a large and grand temple that their gods have betrayed them may be a way to create new Asura.

[Davia D]

Geryon being formerly an Asura Rana answers one question- they're older than Asmodeus taking charge of hell, so, *really* old, sounds like older than Devils (not counting Asmodeus in the 'devil' category for this purpose).

So I bet the advent of religion just increased their number.