Need some advice. I have been doing some historical reading on the site on what others have been doing with NPC classes as I want to add some depth to the NPC's as I am converting Greyhawk over to Pathfinder to run a campaign using several of the old 1st Edition and 2nd edition modules.
What I would like to do is take the Adept and split it into three different adepts and add one more class.
Cleric Adept (based on a non-adventuring priest with limited channeling no familiar)
Arcane Adept (based on the legacy Adept but using INT and Wizard spells with familiar - non-adventuring wizard/sorcerer)
Hedge Adept (a non-adventuring druid)
Thug (Traps and Treachery version - this as always been a nice NPC addition)
this will go along with the classic Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior.
My questions:
1) Has anyone split the Adept class into these three or anything like it and what was the net effect in the game?
2) Any suggestions?
Thanks,
AllenDm
Aren't most clerics, wizards and druids non adventurers?
I recommend "It's an NPC World by Knotty Works. $5.99 PDF
In a game I ran years ago, I changed the warrior class to give it a little more diversity. It really only affected humanoid monsters, but you could use for non "monsters" too. I added 2 skill points per level, added a few skills, and gave them a smidgeon of sneak attack. Better than an NPC warrior, but worse than a PC class. Depending on the need I would give them either a good Fort or good Ref, and change the few extra skills. For example, bandits who ambush on the road had good fort, plus Stealth and Survival. Their ambushes were a little more potent and they gained something by working together. However, they weren't so good that they all got the drop on every PC. They weren't ambush-based monsters with huge Stealth bonuses, and the damage bonus was small and situational. they were a little more fun to run too.
Your idea with the adept seems fine. I wouldn't worry about bad consequences from giving them each a specialty. Just make sure the extra stuff is small, otherwise they might as well have PC classes.
why not just make them low level pc classes npcs would save alot of work for you to do most of what you want the npcs to be npc classes are normally only added to low level cannon fotter for the pcs to cut down at low level as the pcs grow in level npcs generally get higher and higher level but with pc classes and not npc classes so like the head priest of a church would be like level 5 and the next most powerful person of the church would be level 4 with every one else being level 1-3 but they would all be either clerics, oracles, some may be rogues or even a paladin in the mix none of them would be adventueres but they still have pc class levels
Well...one of the quickest ways to enhance the actual adventurers is to use the NPC classes. Most fantasy settings the vast majority of people are commoners, experts, and aristocrats followed by warriors and finally by adepts. Only a small percentage would actually be adventurers (maybe 10% even in high fantasy setting it wouldn't exceed 15% as every day life requires people to tend to everyday affairs.
A well run campaign would have a DM that could manage a story line and a party so that they didn't cut down or abuse NPC's...that goes with the duty of being a DM.
All of the PC classes are geared to be adventurers...the NPC classes are designed to be everyday people. The bulk of what adventurers will meet are every day people. Adventurers are uncommon to extremely rare... At least that is how I run my campaigns...
Just preference...
In a game I ran years ago, I changed the warrior class to give it a little more diversity. It really only affected humanoid monsters, but you could use for non "monsters" too. I added 2 skill points per level, added a few skills, and gave them a smidgeon of sneak attack. Better than an NPC warrior, but worse than a PC class. Depending on the need I would give them either a good Fort or good Ref, and change the few extra skills. For example, bandits who ambush on the road had good fort, plus Stealth and Survival. Their ambushes were a little more potent and they gained something by working together. However, they weren't so good that they all got the drop on every PC. They weren't ambush-based monsters with huge Stealth bonuses, and the damage bonus was small and situational. they were a little more fun to run too.
Your idea with the adept seems fine. I wouldn't worry about bad consequences from giving them each a specialty. Just make sure the extra stuff is small, otherwise they might as well have PC classes.
That is a good idea with the warrior.
On the Adepts I am going to keep in line with how the original Adept was structured. So for each one special benefit and that will not be combat related in anyway...
Thanks,
AllenDm
I recommend "It's an NPC World by Knotty Works. $5.99 PDF
Thanks I was looking at that as a possible purchase...
AllenDm
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I like using Variant Multiclassing from Pathfinder Unchained with NPC classes.
Adept + VMC Cleric is a priest
Expert + VMC Witch is a hedgeiwitch
Warrior + VMC Rogue is a thug
Warrior + VMC Fighter is a soldier
If you wanted a little more powerful you could give them their VMC feats as a series of bonus feats without being to powerful.
I like the variant multiclassing idea.
For the aristocrat class, you could give them something like the investigator's inspiration pool, but catered to education, social influence, and favors. Maybe give the Leadership feat for free but with some restrictions on the cohort until 7th level.
You could choose several lesser class features to be available to the expert, who would get to choose one or more of them (but not all).
Generally though, for NPCs that the PCs intereract with I don't usually see much point in generating character sheets on them. If it has a key skill, assign a bonus. (The sage has a +10 on that check, the pickpocket has +8 on Slight of Hand and Stealth). Unless they are intended for combat or past low level they shouldn't have many HP or even decent attacks. Hopefully your PC don't kill many NPCs.
I houserule adepts to use any mental stat but did not otherwise meddle with the abilities or spell lists.
So here is what I settled on.
I have a general rule that all classes have at least 4 skill points... I think 2 skill points is silly. So I made some basic alterations to fit my needs for each core NPC class.
Here is the Aristocrat:
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The aristocrat’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Editor Note:
Class Features
The following are the class features of the aristocrat NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The aristocrat is proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons and with all types of armor and shields.
Court Intrigue (Ex): At 2nd level the aristocrat gains +1 on any sense motive skill checks while attending court or in the company of royalty or nobility as long as he has at least 1 rank in the skill. At 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level he gains an additional +1 to the skill check. Furthermore at 10th level the Aristocrat can use this ability in any situation a sense motive skill check is required as he is now well practiced at understanding the wants and desires of even those outside court life.
Court Politics (Ex): At 3rd level the aristocrat gains +1 on any Bluff or Diplomacy skill checks while attending court or in the company of royalty or a noble as long as he has at least 1 rank in the skill. At 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level he gains an additional +1 to the skill check. Furthermore at 11th level the Aristocrat can use these abilities in any situation a skill check is required as he is now well practice in negotiating with all sorts of people.
Privilege of Ransom (Ex): At 9th level, if the aristocrat surrenders he may make a Diplomacy skill check to improve the attitude of those capturing him as a full round action. If successful, the capturers are more likely to treat him fairly if not quite handsomely as befitting his station in order to hold him for ransom. However, rather cruel or barbaric victors may not see his intrinsic value. (taken from It's an NPC World)
I will post the rest of the changes I made so I can get some feedback. This fits into what I need from the Aristocrat class and keeps it simple.
AllenDm
Here is the Commoner.
I made a few changes but not many. He gets no special skills but his skill points go to 4. He gets two simple weapons he is proficient in as one is not reasonable in my opinion. A commoner from the country will know how to wield an ax and bow for example...
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6.
Class Skills
The commoner’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are the class features of the commoner NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The commoner is proficient with two simple weapons. He is not proficient with any other weapons, nor is he proficient with any type of armor or shield.
AllenDm.
Here is the Expert. I made some additions as I want the expert class to be an actual expert in a few field. This is a NPC class that fills the guildmaster, trader, merchant, sage role...so he is going to be far more knowledgeable or proficient than an adventurer at his primary or secondary skill.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The expert can choose any 10 skills to be class skills.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are the class features of the expert NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The expert is proficient in the use of all simple weapons and with light armor, but not with any type of shield.
The expert must select a primary and secondary skill (typically a craft, knowledge, or profession) at 2nd level.
Apprentice (Ex): At 2nd level the expert can add +1 to any craft, knowledge, or profession skill checks.
Journeyman (Ex): At 6th level the expert can add an additional +1 to any craft, knowledge, or profession skill checks.
Master (Ex): At 10th level the expert can add 1/2 his level to his primary craft, knowledge or profession skill check. He also gets a +1 in all class skills he has taken at least 1 rank in as well.
Grandmaster (Ex): At 14th level the expert can add is level to his primary craft, knowledge, or profession skill check and he can add 1/2 his level to a secondary craft, knowledge, or profession skill. He also gets an additional +1 in all class skills he has taken at least 1 rank in as well.
Guildmaster (Ex): At 18th level the expert has created a grand reputation and other experts in his field seek him out for his knowledge and mentorship. He gains 1d6+(Cha bonus) in loyal apprentices who work to master his teachings. He can now add his level to his primary and secondary craft, knowledge, or profession skill check.
AllenDm.
Here is the Thug,
Taken from the Traps and Treachery and modified for PF.
Same BAB and Saves as a Rogue.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills
The thug’s class skills are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str).
From <http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/>
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
The following are the class features of the thug NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Sneak Attack:
If a thug can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The thug’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the thug flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the thug score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a thug can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The thug must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
See Precision Damage & Critical Hits FAQ for more information.
AllenDm.
Here is the Warrior. Working on the Adepts...
The only thing I really changed was adding 4 skill points instead of 2 and giving him a bonus combat feat. I use a variant fighter which gives the fighter some additional feats and specials so this fits nicely with the variant fighter.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are the class features of the warrior NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The warrior is proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons and with all types of armor and shields.
Bonus Feats
At 2nd level, 6th, 10th 14th, 18th and 20th level, a warrior gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 6th level, and every four levels thereafter (10th, 14th, and so on including the 20th level), a warrior can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the warrior loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A warrior can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
AllenDm.
EDIT: Ninja'd by an hour. Oh well. XD
Both the old 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting book and the newer PF-compatible Uncommon Commoners line of adventures each created a new arcane NPC class (the "magewright" in the former, and "magician" in the latter - the "magician" was introduced in Fish Sticks, the first adventure, which has complete rules for the class starting on page 25).
That said, if you want an adept focusing on channeling, I'd just literally strip the familiar and give it channeling - channel energy isn't really all that powerful of an ability, as it currently stands, so allowing the adept to channel isn't terribly unbalancing.
If you did want to vary it a bit, perhaps you could make it more like the paladin's (or antipaladin's) lay on hands ability (either including, or not, the ability to channel like a cleric by using extra daily uses), and/or limit the number of uses they get (note: I didn't say grant them the mercy/corruption abilities - those are pretty strong; you still can, but you should probably start stripping the adept of a few spells, if you do).
As for a thug, take a warrior, increase its skill points by 2, reduce it to rogue proficiencies, and you're pretty solid. Is that the kind of thing you mean?
Magewright is a very cool NPC class but it is not what I am looking for. I want to split the adept into three basically a cleric adept, arcane adept, and nature adept.
I plan on the cleric adept being s limited channeler.
The arcane adept will be more like the classic adept but uses INT or CHA as his primary ability and use arcane spells. He will have to memorize his spells from a book.
Nature adept is in line with a Druid.
AllenDM
Discard the aristocrats' first two abilites and simply give them a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense motive while in a community of some kind. It could be a court, or market, orc village, or choir of angels. But not the cave of a fire giant hermit or the untamed wilderness.
For commoner, I though it would be suitable to allow them to choose one additonal class skill or to vary this list based on region. Giving them all simple weapons (or wizard proficiencies) might be unrealistic but will not ultimately not affect gameplay. Many commoners are laborers, but perhaps giving them Endurance at 2nd or 3rd level is suitable, or perhaps a scaling bonus on Fort saves and/or ability a specific ability check.
For the expert, I like the idea of choosing a specialty (hey it works for the alchemist). However, you're throwing in bonuses from carrying sources, and afetr a certain point those bonuses don't mean as much because he or she will already have a maxed out skill. How about a skill unlock at 5th level? How about giving the bonuses a type? How about a feature that augment a skill in a way that does not include a bonus? For example, at X level the expert no longer wastes material on a failed check unless the check is failed by 10 or more, or the expert can craft two items at once, or the expert's apprentices can use the expert's ranks on checks (but not other other bonuses).
So the thug is kind of an "expert" plus sneak attack?
For your warrior, I think the bonus feats are fine, although a "soldier" themed feature would be cool.
Discard the aristocrats' first two abilites and simply give them a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense motive while in a community of some kind. It could be a court, or market, orc village, or choir of angels. But not the cave of a fire giant hermit or the untamed wilderness.
For commoner, I though it would be suitable to allow them to choose one additonal class skill or to vary this list based on region. Giving them all simple weapons (or wizard proficiencies) might be unrealistic but will not ultimately not affect gameplay. Many commoners are laborers, but perhaps giving them Endurance at 2nd or 3rd level is suitable, or perhaps a scaling bonus on Fort saves and/or ability a specific ability check.
For the expert, I like the idea of choosing a specialty (hey it works for the alchemist). However, you're throwing in bonuses from carrying sources, and afetr a certain point those bonuses don't mean as much because he or she will already have a maxed out skill. How about a skill unlock at 5th level? How about giving the bonuses a type? How about a feature that augment a skill in a way that does not include a bonus? For example, at X level the expert no longer wastes material on a failed check unless the check is failed by 10 or more, or the expert can craft two items at once, or the expert's apprentices can use the expert's ranks on checks (but not other other bonuses).
So the thug is kind of an "expert" plus sneak attack?
For your warrior, I think the bonus feats are fine, although a "soldier" themed feature would be cool.
Thanks for the feedback.
I like the addition of community for the Aristocrat. I will add that but I want to keep the Court Intrigue and Court Politics and add the community portion that makes perfect sense... A lot of my campaign...campaigns in general the aristocrat fills a specific niche and those additions help to make him into an NPC I need...like that helpful Noble who always seems to have the information your party needs. The guy that has the ear of the high lord...and so on. So those specials help to fill that need for me especially if it is an NPC they will be working closely with or against in a court setting...(political themed adventure or scene). Hope that makes sense...
The commoner I want to keep common...for now. I do like the idea of regional skills for them.
I can see your point on Expert... I need to rework this a bit.
Thug is from Trap and Treachery ( I have used it for a while) but it is more like a low powered rogue/assassin/ruffian. Warrior levels for straight up fighting scenes and thug levels for hit & run/ambush scenes... A few months ago I use a pack of gnolls in an ambush and a small group had Thug levels while the rest of the group had warrior levels and the leaders had fighter and witch levels. The party initially thought the entire encounter was going to be easy (4th level group). That fell apart and it quickly turned into a chase through the woods and hill lands... It was fun and that little boost with the Thug levels for the initial ambush party gave the party fits on the first three to four rounds.
I use the warrior and thug to boost low level monsters all the time. Easy way to do it along with a few templates.
Now I need to rework the expert a little...you made some great points I had not considered and should have.