Unchained's Revised Action Economy has now been out for a while. It got very mixed reviews then, and probably still has and the core of the issue is that it moves power around and you either accept it or dont.
We need to review actual play of these rules now.
I would like to hear from people who have been using the RAE in their games, how has it affected your combat and fluidity and which classes. I am thinking of starting a new game and on the fence on implementing this (mostly everything else Unchained is though).
What Im particularly looking for:
- Has movement "creep" become a problem? You can now do 60ft movement + 1 action. People crossing battle maps faster?
- Does combat feel different? Is it more fluid?
- Have Swift action classes been hurt (magus, warpriest etc)? Did you house rule this?
- Have unused builds and strategies come into play? (demoralise, feinting, hit and run)
- Is there a notable difference in play compared to the old system?
- Did you houserule something? If so, what? Case by case swift actions etc...
- Rocket tag. Is it happening less, more? Less at higher levels?
There are some things I like about the system...ranged can move shoot and hide, one big hit enemies are more dangerous (action economy usually made these enemies weaker), hit and run like pseudo spring attack from everyone, no more million attacks at high levels (might make combats last more rounds but the same duration), limits casters to chose mobility or casting when quickening spells, feinting works.
All in all I wonder if there is a point to this system apart from shifting power balance slightly or if it'll just bring too many headaches for little benefit.
I dont see Paladins using smite, Rangers using Instant enemies and other really dramatic buffs needing an action a problem. I think the middle ground buffs are the problematic ones (f.ex monks).
There is a very very long discussion of RAE here which I did follow when it was going on and have re read most of it. However, we need play experience now:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s6z0&page=4?unchained-How-is-the-new-actio n-economy-system
Is anyone...using this system at all? Or did it just get dust forgotten...
What Im particularly looking for:
Has movement "creep" become a problem? You can now do 60ft movement + 1 action. People crossing battle maps faster?
Does combat feel different? Is it more fluid?
Have Swift action classes been hurt (magus, warpriest etc)? Did you house rule this?
Have unused builds and strategies come into play? (demoralise, feinting, hit and run)
Is there a notable difference in play compared to the old system?
Did you houserule something? If so, what? Case by case swift actions etc...
Rocket tag. Is it happening less, more? Less at higher levels? [/list]
I used it for a short Wrath of the Righteous campaign (we got halfway through Book 2 before life happened). We were using a Kineticist with a dip in Monk and a Sword-and-Board Paladin. Here's how things worked out:
* Movement was more common than it used to, especially since the MonKineticist would spend an action to move, an action to gather power, and then make two attacks using Flurry of Blows on his third action. He became quite the combat powerhouse, although this movement meant he did provoke more often. The paladin was very mobile despite his 20' move speed since he could move twice and attack.
* The ability to move and attack multiple times changed how combat was run - players were more willing to initiate fights since they would only lose an attack at -10 to do so. The MonKineticist in particular was very different since he gained the ability to gather power and flurry in the same round. In general, I'd say it was more fluid.
* I told my party that we would be using the rules in their current state to test how it interacts with swift actions. The Paladin frequently had to decide between Smite and a second attack, and while he wasn't happy about it he agreed that getting to Move, Smite, and make two attacks might be a bit too much. A couple enemies got weaker, such as an Inquisitor, but others got stronger, such as Clerics. Being able to cast a spell and attack is very helpful for gish builds.
* Combat didn't really change with regards to what tactics were used. Things largely remained the same.
* Insofar as combat is concerned things were streamlined, so our games tended to go faster. Players were more willing to move as it didn't affect their attacks at the lower levels.
* I did not houserule anything, but we didn't seem to need it.
* Some classes that can get multiple attacks on a single action, such as the Monk or TWF characters, can get really powerful very easily. Granted, we were at early levels, but that monk wrecked things quickly.
Can anyone go into more detail about how they feel Two Weapon Fighting with RAE compares with normal action economy? It sounds like it's significantly more powerful, from what I'm reading above.
Shadows are not allowed to do 3 touch attacks per round.
Can anyone go into more detail about how they feel Two Weapon Fighting with RAE compares with normal action economy? It sounds like it's significantly more powerful, from what I'm reading above.
Long story short,you have 3 acts and you can get two attacks in one act with TWF. Improved and Greater TWF let you get your 2nd attack in your 2nd and 3rd act respectively.
This makes TWF much more intensely mobile, as you can move your speed and still get up to 4 swings. Also, you can charge and get both weapon attacks.
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Oh! I also forgot another houserule. We treat Rapid Shot and Manyshot like Two-Weapon Fighting rules, since Full Attack actions are gone.
Demurely so, but thanks for the thoughts! We will be implementing some form of RAE soon. Still wary of too many actions at low level but we'll figure it out.
How do things like cleave and vital strike work? I assume they are 2 acts, but is there any restriton behind them allowing you not to do a standard attack again? Would that standard attack be at a -5?
Also I assume there is no restrictions on normal attacks, meaning a level 1 character can make three attacks? Also what about bab+16? Can they do a 3 act for all attacks, or do classes just get stuck with 3?
Cleave/Greater cleave still make sense since you get a buff to your attack rolls, but Vital Strike seems like garbage if you aren't taking the Devasting cleave feat.
How does every one place skill checks?
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Well... First for Vital strike I've changed like this and explained it like this to my players : Since it's written "you can make one attack" then add "Once per round" and it's ok...
So the feat is now to be read like this:
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Once per round, when you use the attack action that attack deal additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Hop... ;)
You can make that for most of the "problematic" feat to make them work as intended... Cleave "Once per round"... hop... simple and so far, it has worked...Well to be clear I have to add that we also use the Armor as DR rules and the Wounds and Vigor rules at the same time...
Oh and all weapon are at 20 for critical with max 19/20 critical authorized 'cause critics automatically ignore DR and hit directly in Wounds, they are dangerous and can kill in one...And we use Paizo cards for critical and fumble... Oh and no confirmation for critic needed... 20 is critic auto... But this is another things... :D
Back to topic, so far my players loves the new Revised Action Economy rules, though the only issue I run with is the Natural Attack action that is way too pricy in actions, I've lowered it to 2 actions 'cause mounts deserve some love too... :p
Most of the time, so far, fight are outdoor and 2 of my 4 players are mounted on their companion animal, and their enemies are frequently Natural Weapon user only... With the DR rules Natural Weapon are already behind (most of the time they are not magic so no bypass DR and it cost a lot more to enchant Natural Weapons than to do it with a Sword) so they deserved to be able to move a minimum...
So far this has not given too much an advantage to Natural Attack but, once again, this is surely because we use the Armor as DR rules that favor slightly manufactured weapon and armor (it also cost less to enchant armor than to have Natural Armor or even armor on Mounts).
Insofar the fights are much more livelier and the PC are much more creative in their fight... Positioning is much more changing in fights and that's good...
I think that with these rules fight are a lot more tactics than before and my players loves that :p
My group is playing w/ RAE. PCs are only level 2, but I find it has really helped to make fights more interesting. The Kineticists (2 in the party) are pretty much the same in a fight, one blast and a move action.
Where it really shines is for the UMonk and Fighter. Both are more dynamic and are often willing to take a second or even third swing in a round. I don't have any gish classes, but I could see how things like domain powers are much stronger in RAE in normal.