Is it possible to bluff a caster into thinking that a spell succeeded when it actually failed?
For example, if a cleric casts hold person on a rogue who makes a saving throw, can the rogue make a bluff check by standing still and making the cleric think it worked?
By the rules the caster automatically knows if a targeted spell worked so you can't really bluff him.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
If you're wearing Seducer's Bane, the caster will incorrectly sense that failed Enchantment spells have succeeded. I don't know of any ways for other schools of magic. It would work for Hold Person (until they saw you moving). However, it is 10k gold.
With that bit of rules, you need stuff like seducer's bane. I feel like it is not the only such effect either, I recall a, I think Master Spy ability, that does something similar, but I could be wrong and just be misremembering slippery mind.
There is also this spell.
It might be possible with a -20 modifier (the lie is impossible). But generally speaking it is hard with single target spells. It becomes much easier with area spells like Confusion, because the caster doesn't get any information about saves from those.
I think there is a feat from Ultimate Intrigue that might do something like this, but I might remembering incorrectly.
The Master Spy prestige class allows you to trick the caster with certain mind-affecting spells.
Back in v3.5 there was the Spelltouched feat "False Pretenses" (from Unearthed Arcana p.93).
If you'd made your save against a charm or dominate spell, the caster believed he'd succeeded.
Are witch hexes any different because they are supernatural effects and not spells?
Are witch hexes any different because they are supernatural effects and not spells?
Nope. Despite not being called out on their own, supernatural and SLAs work like spells except in the ways in which they are specifically noted to not be like spells.
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Are witch hexes any different because they are supernatural effects and not spells?Nope. Despite not being called out on their own, supernatural and SLAs work like spells except in the ways in which they are specifically noted to not be like spells.
"Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities."
Are witch hexes any different because they are supernatural effects and not spells?Nope. Despite not being called out on their own, supernatural and SLAs work like spells except in the ways in which they are specifically noted to not be like spells."Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities."
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me here or not.
But this is basically my point.
Supernatural works like spells except:
1) No spell resistance
2) Cannot be dispelled or counterspelled
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Are witch hexes any different because they are supernatural effects and not spells?Nope. Despite not being called out on their own, supernatural and SLAs work like spells except in the ways in which they are specifically noted to not be like spells."Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities."I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me here or not.
But this is basically my point.
Supernatural works like spells except:
1) No spell resistance
2) Cannot be dispelled or counterspelled
I am disagreeing with you. Supernatural abilities are not spell-like. They are magical and spells are magical, but they are two different systems.
If you mean "they are like spells because they are magical", okay. That's true. But in no other way are they like spells as anything that is a spell comes with a host of rules that are not included with supernatural abilities.
I didn't say supernatural abilities are "Spell-Like" abilities, a specific game term which has mechanically meaning. I said they are like spells, except in the ways in which they are noted to be different.
Since you disagree, can explain how supernatural abilities work without referring to anything to do with the spell section of the CRB?
Mechanically they work like spells except for the ways in which they are stated not to.
It's actually quite the opposite of what you say, there are a host of rules not mentioned with SU and SLAs which depend on the magic chapter (which is about spells) to be usable.
SLAs and SU abilities really don't get much more than the definition which you already quoted.
You need a special ability to do this as the spellcaster automatically knows if their spell failed.
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I didn't say supernatural abilities are "Spell-Like" abilities, a specific game term which has mechanically meaning. I said they are like spells, except in the ways in which they are noted to be different.
Since you disagree, can explain how supernatural abilities work without referring to anything to do with the spell section of the CRB?
Mechanically they work like spells except for the ways in which they are stated not to.
It's actually quite the opposite of what you say, there are a host of rules not mentioned with SU and SLAs which depend on the magic chapter (which is about spells) to be usable.
SLAs and SU abilities really don't get much more than the definition which you already quoted.
The "magic" section helps explain things that are "magical". Supernatural abilities are "magical". So, of course, you use that section to explain things that are magical.
Are you then of the mind that supernatural abilities have components? No, of course not. In fact, nothing states that supernatural abilities are like spells... the opposite is true in that it says they are not spell-like. Unlike spell-like abilities which are like spells... explicitly.
Spells have components because they're specifically noted in each spell entry what components they have. Since SLA and Su abilities don't have any listed, one can correctly assume there aren't any.
Your assumption that the Magic chapter section explains SLA and SU is not really a correct one, since most every paragrpah mentions spells and nothing else. If you're saying that SLAs and SU don't function like spells, then you can't look to any part of the magic chapter that specifies spells and doesn't mention SLA or SU. And if you do that, then those abilities don't function because they don't have enough rules on there own.
The only thing that is talked about in the Magic chapter for SLAs and SUs is:
Special Abilities
A number of classes and creatures gain the use of special abilities, many of which function like spells.
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.
Supernatural Abilities: These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.
Extraordinary Abilities: These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.
Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
But its included all in there to tell you mechanically that the damn things work like spells, except for the exemption stated here.
Is it possible to bluff a caster into thinking that a spell succeeded when it actually failed?
For example, if a cleric casts hold person on a rogue who makes a saving throw, can the rogue make a bluff check by standing still and making the cleric think it worked?
At the very least you'd have to know a, what exact spell was being cast upon you, and b, the exact effects of said spell.
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Spells have components because they're specifically noted in each spell entry what components they have. Since SLA and Su abilities don't have any listed, one can correctly assume there aren't any.
Your assumption that the Magic chapter section explains SLA and SU is not really a correct one, since most every paragrpah mentions spells and nothing else. If you're saying that SLAs and SU don't function like spells, then you can't look to any part of the magic chapter that specifies spells and doesn't mention SLA or SU. And if you do that, then those abilities don't function because they don't have enough rules on there own.
The only thing that is talked about in the Magic chapter for SLAs and SUs is:
...Special Abilities
A number of classes and creatures gain the use of special abilities, many of which function like spells.
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.
Supernatural Abilities: These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells,
For your point in this post to make sense... then natural abilities and extraordinary abilities function like spells too. Do you believe that as well?
As I said, the only way they are like spells is that they are magical. The magic section is couched in the terms of spells, this has confused people for a long time, but the intention is for you to understand that all forms of magic function as spells do in their interactions. So a polymorph effect is a polymorph effect and follows all the rules for a polymorph effect... spell or not. But a supernatural ability does not function like a spell in that you do not do anything spell-like to use the ability nor are they countered in the same way. In fact, they only way to stop a supernatural ability is to knocked out/kill the creature before they use it or to turn off magic.
We are sort of agreeing here. We both know you don't "cast" a supernatural ability. We both know that a supernatural ability is wildly different from in a spell in execution except that they both follow the rules for magic.