Hi everyone,
I've got a druid in my group who wants his Roc animal companion to be gargantuan, and so I've decided to make a feat chain for it. What do you think? Are they too weak, too strong?
Improved Animal Companion
Prerequisite: Animal Companion (or similar) feature with an effective druid level of 10, large animal companion.
Benefit: Animal companion becomes Huge by application of the following statistical changes:
Str +2, Dex -2, Con +2, increase size 1 category, increase damage dice for natural attacks 1 category.
Greater Animal Companion
Prerequisite: Improved Animal Companion, effective druid level of 15
Benefit: Animal companion becomes Gargantuan by application of the following statistical changes: Str +2, Dex -2, Con +2, increase size 1 category, increase damage dice for natural attacks 1 category.
I'm worried about the fact that the size increases will confer natural reach on the animal companion (10 ft and 15 ft), and also the +3 increase to CMB that comes with the Greater feat. I'm also not sure whether I should build in a natural armor bonus to counteract the AC decrease due to size, or increase the str bonus to +4 to counteract the -1 to attack with the Greater feat (although this would exacerbate the CMB issue).
These feats will be available to every animal companion that meets the pre-reqs, not just Rocs.
Thanks in advance.
Are you the GM prepared to deal with a huge or gargantuan party member? Maybe this should be a prestige class instead of two feats.
Yeah I can deal with it. I've already made a prestige class, but I also wanted to see if feats would work.
The prestige class I've made is 5 levels long, and essentially takes away 2 levels of spell casting and 1 wild shape advancement, in return for a stronger size increase (basically applying the giant simple template). I would however like the ability to have really big companions open to other companion classes as well, hence the two feats.
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Why exactly do they want a Gargantuan roc? In places where adventurers go, more often than not, animal companions of size Large and larger are more hindering than helpful. I think most players would prefer options for temporary size increases, like animal growth. I would suggest designing a spell or magic item.
I've already talked with the player in question, and, against all common sense, this is what he wants-- a permanent, gargantuan adult roc. I've already warned him about all of the baggage that comes with it.
EDIT: Of course, I can just turn around and say 'no' now, but I thought I'd give it a shot first.
Large-sized player characters annoy me. I can't even imagine what gargantuan woukd do. At the very least, come back and tell us your thoughts after you try it out.
Alright. It's going to be a while though-- the feat (and prestige class) are both for level 10. The party at the minute is level 4.
I'd really like the opportunity to properly play-test this stuff, but I'm studying Engineering at the moment so I only really have Saturdays off.
Tell your party to create high level characters for a single session (or level themselves up if they want). A few combats, light on story. Let them do some zany high level stuff for the evening, and then go back to 4th level.
One of my pals got his engineering degree over 10 years while he worked as a carpenter/general contractor and started a family (I was the electrician at his jobs for the last couple years). Took him another two years of part time engineering gigs until he landed a permanent job that was a good fit for him. Sure he originally wanted to be a structural engineer designing high rises and ended up working on commercial aircraft, but engineering is a great career once you get to where you want to be.
Practically, the druid is set up where he wants to be. He (normally) lives as a hermit in a mountain range where a bunch of rocs live, and he's a member of a druidic order that exists in part to stop the rocs from getting out of hand. There's enough large prey around to keep the rocs satisfied.
I've always controlled the animal companions in our group, and I'm not expecting a size increase to change this.
As for sleeping, that's whatever my player wants. He should have enough money that hiring out a barn won't be an issue by level 10, and sleeping in the mountains will be fine in the Isles (where the party currently are)
I'm mostly just concerned about getting the crunch right at the moment. The rest of the practical issues will either solve themselves or require the players to take some initiative.
These issues will be a lot more pronounced when they leave the Isles, but my group are a resourceful lot, so I have faith in them.
What I haven't included in my post here is about 2 paragraphs of warning the players away from Huge or larger animal companions, but it's there and they can make what they want of it.
Animal companions are designed very carefully around their size categories. A feat that lets you throw that out the window seems silly. Why not just use animal growth spell?
In short, I've got a player who wants an adult roc as an animal companion, and I said I'd try to accommodate him (thinking it was an interesting idea). Both of us were very new to Pathfinder at the time, and (several years later) it's finally gotten around to the point where I have to put my money where my mouth is.
If you're wondering why it took me so long, I've had multiple groups since, and am now playing with the same person again.
Give it a shot. See how it goes. Reserve the right to reverse the ruling if things fall apart.
Why not just get a permanencied Animal Growth spell put on it?
Alright. Thanks everyone-- I'm not expecting an apocalypse: I'm pretty good at unorthodox play-styles as far as Pathfinder is concerned, and I'll let you know how it all goes.
Tomorrow I have a normal session, and I'll organize the 'test' session for next week. My sessions are always about 10 hours long, so we'll be able to do plenty of combats and maybe get back to the main campaign as well.
@Lady-J Do you recommend an empty 'tax' feat, or one with an actual use, such as Iron Will or something similar?
The reason why I'm staying away from Animal Growth is simply because my player wants the size increase to be the "real thing". Permanencied Animal Growth is certainly an option (and one I've mentioned), but if the player wants to go that route that's entirely up to him.
When it comes to my group, they all have carte-blanche (within reason) when creating their characters, and I have to keep up and provide a decent sandbox for it all. I've always played by that philosophy, and despite the nightmares it sometimes lands me in, the players always enjoy it. I consider it a nice challenge.
Okay, I'll bear that in mind.
For now, I've put the statistical changes suggested by Lady-J, and I've thrown in skill focus (knowledge nature) as a tax. We'll try that out.
It may be that it's too powerful (especially with +6 to str and con at gargantuan), but it has it's own drawbacks, and I can always tone it down it if gets too much.
Sure, I'll take your word for it. Summoners are one class I don't have a lot of experience with.
Instead of Knowledge (nature), another route would be ranks in Handle Animal (or a H.A. feat). You could require that the companion itself have a certain feat. You could also say that oversized animal companions are quite willful and require higher H.A. checks.
That's true, I'll have a play around with it.
Okay, so what about having skill focus (handle animal) as a feat, with handle animal checks for huge and gargantuan animals made at a +5 DC.
I'd also require Endurance to be taken by the companion.
I don't want to put many more requirements, just for the sake of simplicity.
We'll see. I'll talk about it with them tomorrow.
+5 for huge +10 for gargantuan.
I'll bear all of these ideas in mind, the play-test is organized for next Sunday.
I've already talked about Mammoth Rider, and he doesn't want it, for the most part because there's no spellcasting advancement for the class.
I'll likely head in a similar direction however if the feats turn out to be too powerful.
So, as you can see, I've tried pretty much everything at this point. I'll try to balance the feats as best I can; if they don't work out, I've already made a more spell caster-oriented version of Mammoth Rider, and anyone who is more martially inclined can take Mammoth Rider.
I've already made the prestige class, so it's done and dusted already. If he prefers an archetype, he can say so, although I'd have to work out what to swap out for what.
Damn it, I got the flu. I had to cancel the session, and now have to wait three weeks until we have time to play again.
Playtested the feats-- everything went well. I'm going to use them in my main game now, thanks for the advice guys!