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So a while ago I posted a concept for a fighter fix that I thought would be a lot better than it really did turn out to be in some ways. I got feed back from the boards and settled that yeah, my concept was pretty flawed in the end and that I should take a step back to decide what I wanted the fighter to actually represent with all of the additional material that's out there now. Unfortunately what I did come back with after looking through is that Stamina, Advanced Weapon Training, and Advanced Armor Training don't really fix much. Stamina in particular seems to be a bit to hyper specific with what it's wanting to do, which is to make certain feats that were already "meh" into less "meh" options for instead a pretty difficult to recharge resource. Admittedly it's cool that it recharges at all unlike many other resources, but I realized we already have something like that: Grit.
After discovering the Myrmidon Fighter archetype from path of war it really just felt like what the fighter wanted to be in the first place. However I know that several members of my group are a little leery of maneuvers since they have never used the system, so I dusted off my old design concept and attempted to port a lot of the Myrmidon's grit based systems (almost all of them really) while adapting and adjusting a few of my existing ones. Sadly I don't have a lot of the time to devote to these things I once did, and would really appreciate it if the boards could help me point out where I've messed up royally (I'm sure I've forgotten to edit some of the Prowess abilities, but need more time to look them over so extra eyes are wonderful) before jumping it into play testing with my group.
Class goals attempting to meet:
-Make the fighter more engaging to play both in action economy and narrative scale.
-Make the fighter less reliant on feat chains that prevent the idea of a "does it all" warrior.
-Allow the fighter to contribute outside of combat, even if it is in a marginal manner.
-Make the class a very Multiclass friendly choice, further enhancing it's "been there, done that" feel and theme.
-Fit the concept of "Soldier/Warrior who uses training and raw determination to accomplish things that seem to defy the odds against them".
Here is my next attempt at a 'fix', or at least a 'change for the better' to The Fighter
Changes
1) So +1 hit with 2 weapon groups at 1st.
2) Grit: very thematic, makes you wonder why it never got it in any archetype from Paizo.
3) Ready for trouble: mimics Bravery?
4) Utility is a cool/flavorful idea
5) Versatile Weapons lets you add weapon type, but not take it away? You couldn't take away piercing from a rapier to not split a Ooze?
6) Onslaught of Blows is very strong.
7) Wait, is Arcane Resistance vs non-arcane? Maybe call it Eldritch Resistance if works v Divine.
8) Armor Training gives AC and DR? Bit much I think.
9) Challenge seems like stealing Cavaliers thingie.
10) Evasion should have a prereq as it seems given too freely. Maybe Lightning Reflexes.
11) Evasive Target seems too strong. Dodge AC and DR even if limited to ranged. I could see doubling AC and nixing DR or double DR but no Dodge AC. But both is too much.
12) Why does Rapid Fire not give Rapid Reload for Firearms?
In general, these skills seem too strong. I mean, 1/2 if them seem fine, but the rest not so much.
I'd allow it only in a game I run if I changed Fighter's Prowess to 2nd and every 4 levels thereafter (also changing a few Prowess skills that are too strong).
The rest of class is really decent.
If I was to change it, I'd do it like this: (it looks mostly identical because not too much to change)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CyWOXWWRo0zSba7tEvnuXT7kcz-EQTNaVQgZhmn Lx5c/edit#
Changes
1) So +1 hit with 2 weapon groups at 1st.
2) Grit: very thematic, makes you wonder why it never got it in any archetype from Paizo.
3) Ready for trouble: mimics Bravery?
4) Utility is a cool/flavorful idea
5) Versatile Weapons lets you add weapon type, but not take it away? You couldn't take away piercing from a rapier to not split a Ooze?
6) Onslaught of Blows is very strong.7) Wait, is Arcane Resistance vs non-arcane? Maybe call it Eldritch Resistance if works v Divine.
8) Armor Training gives AC and DR? Bit much I think.
9) Challenge seems like stealing Cavaliers thingie.
10) Evasion should have a prereq as it seems given too freely. Maybe Lightning Reflexes.
11) Evasive Target seems too strong. Dodge AC and DR even if limited to ranged. I could see doubling AC and nixing DR or double DR but no Dodge AC. But both is too much.
12) Why does Rapid Fire not give Rapid Reload for Firearms?In general, these skills seem too strong. I mean, 1/2 if them seem fine, but the rest not so much.
I'd allow it only in a game I run if I changed Fighter's Prowess to 2nd and every 4 levels thereafter (also changing a few Prowess skills that are too strong).The rest of class is really decent.
If I was to change it, I'd do it like this: (it looks mostly identical because not too much to change)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CyWOXWWRo0zSba7tEvnuXT7kcz-EQTNaVQgZhmn Lx5c/edit#
First off thanks for the input! Now lets see.
1- Yep pretty much. I feel this at least allows the fighter more versatility than other classes in respects to what they are supposed to be doing, being a weapon master.
2- Yeah I don't get why myself, but I'm glad dreamscarred thought of it.
3- Sort of, this is one of the abilities I took from the dreamscarred Myrmidon fighter, the early grit abilities are all ported straight from that and I wish i could take credit for them, but alas that would be dishonest of me.
4- See 3
5- Yeah this one I haven't been too sure about being able to take away traits. It would make some sense yes, but in some others possibly not. It's not a change I'm unwilling to make though given the point of the ability and the example you do point out.
6- As it's meant to be! I can see it being nerfed down to only allowing the second attack in a routine to be swapped though, as it stands it was primarily an attempt to help in mitigate the problem of full attacking in general, being that at higher levels your second and third attacks are just really not as likely to connect.
7- Good point. It might be a good idea to actually split it up into two versions for each if it proves too powerful, but otherwise I can see such a renaming being a good edit.
8- I've thought of this in the past when writing the ability, but in many cases I don't know if it will be AS powerful as it looks. Touch AC has many times proven to be the end all be all of most things, and monster attack bonuses seem to rise sky high. My original thought was to give this a bump in order to allow someone to allocate their money into something other than armor such are more flavorful gear or building options. For now I'll make a note about doubling checking this in playtest builds.
9- Actually the goal was to kinda 'phase out' the cavalier and just allow the fighter to build in a way as to BECOME one. Mostly because the cavalier feels like a fighter replacement already. If that proves to be a poor choice and something this class can't fulfill though, I have no problem removing the ability.
10- You may be right. That or possibly restrict it to "Only when wearing light or no armor"? I want to limit as much taxing as possible.
11- You think so? I manly was concerned with trying to mitigate the obscene threat of later level arrow barrages and the damage that can be output from 2-3 archers with Rapid + Manyshot, but I can agree with removing one of those aspects. Noting that down for the playtest.
12- Mostly because guns weren't really a thing when I was writing this draft (it was before the gunslinger came out). Our group doesn't really like to run with gunslingers, but it can't hurt to see how it goes if it's added in. Making that note down to try it out as a build and see.
I can understand some of them being a tad strong since I haven't gotten much play around with things from the first drafts, heck I've changed them around a couple times since I last posted the class here in it's older, more janky form. However I will say that would like to keep them stronger than most feats, and gained at the current pace. I'm much more willing to tone them down then to reduce the amount you get since that removes some of their point- replace fighter feats entirely. Feats in general are very weak or are a tax from my play experiences, so I'm hoping to actually give the fighter the chance to use his feats on level gain to instead pick up more flavor based or roleplay based General feats that aren't involved solely in combat. Basically the game plan is to encourage a player to not need to select a normal combat feat at all, because the fighter gets things that are better, purely for being a fighter.
Sadly I can't really seem to get the link you've provided to work though, so I can't really weigh in on your idea of 1 per 4 levels.
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So, I've read your changes to the fighter. First off, with the new additions of advanced weapon training and advanced armour training, I really don't feel fighters to be still in need of a fix, per se. At least not more so than any other class. But you'll probably have your reasons for wanting to change the fighter, so I'll just take that at face value, and give feedback on your work.
Combat school:
- the groups include exotic weapons. As written now, you're going to have characters with weapon focus in weapons they're not proficient in.
- Cool, two free weapon focuses with groups. Why stop there? Go for spec, greater focus, and greater spec as well, all nicely paced at 4,8,12
Grit:
- That's an awful lot of grit points. A gunslinger only gets its wis bonus. Why should a fighter get so many more?
Deeds:
Unbreakable - Like it, but why circumstance?
Heroic recovery - That's rogue / swashbuckler territory, I'd allow the fighter to draw a dagger or other weapon from the close group as swift action and allow a grapple or trip from prone as standard action. Or something else more fightery than kip up.
Man of action - I'd leave acrobatics out, maybe switch it for a run check. Also, I'd reduce the bonus by half and add a duration.
Ready for action - donning a shield that quickly is harder than drawing a two handed weapon that quickly, I think. So I'd lose the first, or add the second, or both.
Field bandage - why once a day? Why not once until fully healed? Also, why does this go of character level instead of class level?
Makeshift tool - I don't get what you mean. What sort of tools? And for what actions? As written, that fighter can now pick a lock with his mace, as long as he does it during combat.
Improvise weapon - I would reduce the penalty to 0. That's what the feat does, and this is situational enough to not be powerful
Versatile weapon - I can get behind this when I'm picturing a sword or the like. But this means the fighter can slash with a flail, and I think that's ridiculous. I'd leave this out entirely. This is the reason martials carry multiple weapons, and that is simply cool.
Onslaught of blows:
- First off, your text doesn't say the same as your examples. If I'd follow your text, level 11 would be +11/+11/+11 and level 20 would be +20/+20/+20/+20.
- As written, a level 16 fighter using this would attack at +16/+16/+16/+1, and I think that's kind of weird.
- Since this class feature starts at a +5 to hit as a free action at level 6 and grows all the way to a +5/+15/+15 to hit at level 20, I'd say this ability is extremely powerful. Gamebreakingly so.
- Considering the huge chance such an attack will either score a crit or a kill,you'll be looking at this attack every single round. Especially with that crapload of grit points you've handed out.
- You've just made improved and greater two weapon fighting extremely unattractive. They don't get these extreme bonuses.
Active assault:
- Did you intend for this to start at 2 extra steps? Because that's what you wrote: level 10, just 1 step, level 11, suddenly 3
- I would cap this ability at just one extra step and I would only allow it during a full attack action.
Grim determination - 2 very powerful effects for free, at once. How about lessening fear and exhaustion effects by one step?
Wow! The powerboost at level 11 is extreme! From 2 to 3 full BAB attacks, 3 five foot steps, and immune to fear and exhaustion!
Fighter's prowess - this is instead of feats, I take it? Nice idea. I haven't looked at all the skills, but some seem a little strong.
Pack mule.
- Heavy load with no penalty, with level added to str score. Have you taken the time to calculate this? A level 10 fighter with str 18 would prance about carrying 1200 pounds... That's carrying a cow while swordfighting!!!
Also, why would a fighter be so good at item retrieval??
Martial flexibility:
How does this not make the fighter superior over the brawler in every way possible?
School training
Like weapon training, but for two groups, and without adding groups. Can advanced weapon training be used with it?
Warrior's determination:
More terminator stuff! Also, even more level 11 power!!!
Threat assessment:
A sort-of knowledge check, but without a dc. I like it, but I do think it should include a reasonable chance of getting it completely wrong.
Warlord:
The old-school 2nd edition 'lord' title and its benefits. It never really worked well back then, and I doubt it will now. But if you're willing to play with it, sure.
Also: more level 11 power!
Sweat and blood:
Level 11, the Godlike level. Seriously, is this your lucky number?
Otherwise the ability in itself is kind of fun, but weird. Why would a fighter suddenly start to regenerate? Is this fighter magic? Is it then affected by an antimagic field?
Combat school mastery
I'm truly surprised to find something underpowered in your list. So... A scimitar wielder would get the choice of 18-20/x2 or 19-20/x3. That's a strange choice to be having to make. Also, is this affected by improved critical?
Fighting Spirit
The attack rolls, ok
Fort saves, ok
But why ref and wil saves? Just to be more Terminator?
Peerless warrior
The first part of this line will never come into effect, because my 12 (!!!) grit points might as well be infinite as I slash my elven curve blade around with +20/+20/+20/+20, critting on any attack roll of 15 or higher, and regaining grit per crit.
Honestly, you have some nice ideas, but reading this is like having a kid explain to you what his position of power is in the game he just made up. This fighter is completely unstuppable and might as well start wearing leather jackets and sunglasses and talk with an Austrian accent. Also, he would govern California from level 11 onward.
Lots of stuff
Firstly thanks for taking a look :) now then lets see. I do like the stuff for advanced armor and weapon training, but they are also..a little bland and seem to come only much to late. I'm of the camp that "if your concept needs to wait till 9th level to do something unique, it's a pretty weak concept for a class". But thats entirely opinion based and biased around the fact that so few of our games reach level 10 anymore which personally always bugs me. My main reasons for wanting to change the fighter itself are that it just always felt like a buffed up warrior NPC, never doing anything TRULY unique to itself.
Also you are certainly right about level 11 being a little...bloated XD I hadn't even noticed while I was shuffling around abilities and ideas from another similar idea. This is totally not intended, and something I will be trying to fix forthwith. I don't quite know where to put some things yet, but yeah it needs fixing really badly now that I notice it. Thanks for pointing such a glaring issue out, I don't have the attention span I used to with work and all.
Combat School: Good point. Would saying "You also become proficient with all weapons in your chosen groups" be too powerful? As for the other feats I honestly just forgot about them since no one at our table wants to play a fighter. Perhaps add those into the School Training bonus as you counting as 'having them' similarly to the school and weapon focus? Or in your thoughts would 4/8/12 work better for those passive bonuses? Would certainly open more levels to move around some abilities.
Grit: Actually all of these but the ones before Versatile Weapon are straight up copied from the Myrmidon Fighter from Dreamscarred press. I saw this and got the idea to attempt to impliment grit into my old version of the rewrite since it made so much sense (but my group is leery of maneuvers at the moment), as is the warrior's determination ability though I just made it not a deed. So any weirdness there is partly in their own writing and partly me not noticing like with the Character and Class level difference. I'll correct that part
For makeshift tools I can see it as like him just hitting the lock 'just right' to pop it off, or other more brute/inventive manners than actually 'picking' the lock. I would imagine it taking the same actions as it would NORMALLY take though from the implication.
For improvise weapon I am not in disagreement there, not a bad change.
As for the number of points I know this will need testing and a lot of fiddling. I do NOT want to tie it to an ability score unless I have to. I would like to have it either as a static number rising with level of some kind to make having actual fighter levels matter. Even if I'm trying to make them a better multiclasser than most via prowess abilities, I think the fighter's whole deal of "raw experience" shouldn't necessarily be totally tied to an ability score. Do you think starting at 3 points, and then increasing by 1 point per 5 class levels works? Total of 6 if my math is right, half the amount it did come to.
Versatile Weapon: I wouldn't entirely agree here, in boxing for example it's very common for fighters to 'cut' each other with blunted fists by the nature of literally pulling the skin fiber apart with blunt force. With a flail scrapping something with the edge of a spined ball, or a rake with a mace flang would indeed cause more of a 'slash' like wound than a blunt force trauma one. Much less clean than a sword of course hence why it would still retain the bludgeoning category. At least this would be my thoughts on how it worked in my head. This ability isn't SUPER important to me though, and I can see it being dropped. I was never personally a fan of the sword quiver image of a martial, more of a "this sword was my fathers, and I will carry it to the ends of the earth" type of fantasy girl myself, and to reduce the price gouge of multiple item carrying that martials already suffer. With school training though, it's pretty mitigated though in retrospect sooo again, not super attached.
Onslaught of Blows: ah crap that isn't what I'd meant it to mean no. I primarily meant it to just replace at first the next step for 1 point, then you could do two attack replacements for 2 grit, and finally 3 for 3 grit. Maybe change this to something that allows you to make an additional attack as part of a normal single attack action, like a 'weaker pounce' that scales with level? I would argue that anything requiring an actual attack roll can't be gamebreaker in a game with9th level casters, but thats a different bear to poke, and I can see how the ability is too strong now. Originally it was just a for free "you get to replace one of your iterative attacks with your fighter level" without the other two.
Active assault: ah, no I did not intend that. I totally messed up here. Originally the ability came on at level 8 and scaled for free, but I completely didn't edit the ability. I meant for it to give you a single free 5ft step for 1 grit point, then at 16 you could spend another to get 3 total. All my fault for not paying attention during copy pasting and moving things about. But since it's sitting at 11th...I'll probably move it down in level gained and then make it scale up again Would getting it at 5th to start (for 1 extra at 5, 2 at 10, 3 at 15, and 4 at 20) be too early?
Grim Determination: For exhaustion I was concerned with an overlap of Warrior's Determination, and intended for it to be the idea of "immune to the worst, and can ignore the minor version". It would still be effective immunity to the effect of exhaustion to lessen it to fatigue. Any thoughts on how to resolve that? For fear I originally had a changed effect of Bravery that reduced all fear by one step, and eventual immunity at around 10-12. I do want to give them full immunity to fear a least at some point, after all that's a pretty fitting ability for a raw experience/determination type martial.
Fighters Prowess: Some are a bit too much, and I'm hoping to trim those down once they are isolated and such.
Pack Mule: This ability always seems to come up and yet I so often forget to do something with it. Before I had the versatile weapon ability this was the answer to the sword quiver phenomenon. As is..I don't think it's much needed anymore. Or at least just cut down heavily. As for why they would be so good at retrieving things I always pictured the trained soldier types being the ones that could best pull whatever needed whenever. People who can't throw fireballs gotta be quick at pulling out the alchemist fire without being eaten after all. This ability I can see just being scrapped entirely though, if nothing else to make space for something more fitting of the newer design concept.
Martial Flexibility: I actually got the idea to use this from the last info I got from these very boards. It genuinely feels like this ability should have been on the fighter in the first place, the master of on the fly combat type thing. Brawlers to me just feel "We know the monk is bad, so here we made a really in depth fighter archetype to replace the monk". So I put it in as a way of mitigating the feat taxes even further than prowess. Built your fighter entirely for melee but all the enemies are flying? "Well I was still taught to use a bow in the war, so I think I can pull out some of those old skills" type deal. Do you think this is a poor choice of direction?
School Training: Yep pretty much. With the scaling, martial flexibility, and prowess abilities I didn't see the need to add MORE groups onto it. Do you disagree? As for Advanced weapon training, no it was not meant to function with it, I honestly don't enjoy the way advanced weapon training is implemented. Some of the bonuses are nice and even interesting, but they come on so late in the game that I just don't see them as impactful as people seem to imply they are...I may just be missing something and that is a failure on my part if I am.
Warriors Determination: This too was taken from the Myrimidon fighter more or less verbatim, so the 11th level bloating within it was completely unintentional. I need to address that obviously.
Threat Assessment: Why do you think it should have a chance of failure? I only ask because of how the opponent CAN attempt to influence the result already, which in itself is a form of that.
Warlord: This was in fact one of the only original things that happened at 11th XD. And during the initial playtest this went over really well with my group, who liked the feeling of being able to mechanically have a way of becoming a bit important lord without a bunch of hoops. I don't need it there, it just has been something cool attached for a while. You think it could bear cutting?
Sweat and Blood: the other only thing that was originally level 11 before I went full derp and didn't pay attention. This was spawned by the idea that Hit Points are just an abstract idea in the game, and can easily be used to represent fighting willpower. Since Fast Healing is an Extraordinary it's not magic in the slightest. Its less him actually regenerating and more just...refusing to die right away. Now if he STOPS fighting, the weight of the wounds hits and her can't keep that up because the adrenaline dies down. You think it might be more flavorful to change it to "spend a point of grit to gain fast healing X" to represent that?
Combat School Mastery: I've been told that a lot of my stuff comes off as overpowered in the beginning yes lol. This comes from a desire to A: reduce caster/martial issues as much as humanly possible, and B: I've always had a more top-down design philosophy. I find it easier to REDUCE power than I do in increasing power. Begin with 'busted' and trim slowly until just right. As for the ability itself, it's one I liked the idea of at the time, normalizing damage across almost everything unless you wanted the original, improving some things, and not all of them. And yes, improved critical affects it as normal.
Fighting spirit: Well I mean at the level you get it at is it really anything problematic? You're still almost assured to lose the roll, but it means that you won't automatically lose. It makes it so a lower level mook wave can't spam save the guy reliably because he's that experienced, but he's still almost assured to fail an equal CRed save on a roll of 1.
Peerless Warrior: A domino effect of poor wording choices and such on my end that I fully take responsibility for. I hadn't taken the full time to account for how much is gotten before this point, mostly because I don't often have a lot of time to just work on a class in one sitting, so it's piecemeal design over several days.
Thank you again for taking the time to look through the class though, and I hope it's not turned you off from helping me correct some of these issues. As for the power level I was originally aiming for High tier 3, possibly low tier 2 even, if such a balance point can be reached within a purely martial package at least. So I do apologize for such amateurish mistakes like the level 11 shenanigans once more.
Well, I feel, you could put for weapon proficiency:
He is also proficient with any weapon in his combat school (see below) even exotic weapons in it.
This looks like combining Kirth's fighter with some Aelyrinth's ideas and adding that Myrmidon thing. Way, way overpowered. I don't mind the combat options galore but most of numerical increases need to be removed. I mean, you took most of Kirth's talents wholesale but if you don't make similar thing with other martial classes this fighter is going to mincemeat the lot of them. I'll take a better look tomorrow and perhaps have some ideas for trimming down.
This looks like combining Kirth's fighter with some Aelyrinth's ideas and adding that Myrmidon thing. Way, way overpowered. I don't mind the combat options galore but most of numerical increases need to be removed. I mean, you took most of Kirth's talents wholesale but if you don't make similar thing with other martial classes this fighter is going to mincemeat the lot of them. I'll take a better look tomorrow and perhaps have some ideas for trimming down.
I believe that is the name of who I got a lot of it from yeah, though many of them were ideas from an older fighter rework concept I found from 3.5 as well, so perhaps some overlasp? I was an idiot and didn't note the name down while I was physically writing things to type out at the time. The original chasis was based on the Frank and K tome fighter fix though, and has been slowly tweaked and such through board talk and up or down mistakes. I'm just hoping to hit a sweet spot with the rare bits of time I have to work on it I do now. I'm curious what numerical things you think need removed though, thus far the only things I have down to lower are Onslaught of Blows, Armor training, and a possible staggering of School Training.
I would say the barbarian just needs more options than "two hand a big thing" to compete considering things like the AM build exist, but the goal IS to land this in the high tier 3 possible low 2 area of balance. The other martials need attention too, but the fighter seems to me to be the one that needed the most work and thus the one I threw the most into at first blush trying to get it to that power level. Thanks in advance for when you get back here though, more notes will help greatly.
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For starters: advanced weapon training and advanced armor training are also feats, did you know? So, their options don't start at level 9 and 7, but at level 5 and 3.
It's good that you've stated your goals more clearly. To get the fighter to a higher tier. This means not more raw prowess, but rather more options and utility.
With the current fighter by Paizo, I would tell you to make a weapon master and then make sure that you have, by level 4, a magic weapon, the barroom brawler feat, advanced weapon training: abundant tactics feat, and preferrably gloves of dueling. You would then be able to flex advanced weapon training: item mastery, for whatever situation you need at that moment. This gives the fighter stuff like invisibility, curse, and fly a few times a day, at the cost of a move action.
But... You're not really going with what Paizo gave you. I'd say if you aren't going to do that, why not let go of the whole 'fighter' concept altogether? In 3.5, there was a lovely book called Tome of Battle, the Book of Nine Swords. It's here, I'd advice you to read it. That book takes martial classes up a tier or two.
Then, you can either try to adapt that book to pathfinder yourself or scour the internet for other people's abaptations. I think I've seen at least one pathfinder sword sage out there, somewhere.
Anyway, good luck with the whole thing! Don't hesitate to ask (pm) if you've posted something you'd like me to take a look at :) I'm sometimes not on this forum for weeks at a time.
For starters: advanced weapon training and advanced armor training are also feats, did you know? So, their options don't start at level 9 and 7, but at level 5 and 3.
It's good that you've stated your goals more clearly. To get the fighter to a higher tier. This means not more raw prowess, but rather more options and utility.
With the current fighter by Paizo, I would tell you to make a weapon master and then make sure that you have, by level 4, a magic weapon, the barroom brawler feat, advanced weapon training: abundant tactics feat, and preferrably gloves of dueling. You would then be able to flex advanced weapon training: item mastery, for whatever situation you need at that moment. This gives the fighter stuff like invisibility, curse, and fly a few times a day, at the cost of a move action.
But... You're not really going with what Paizo gave you. I'd say if you aren't going to do that, why not let go of the whole 'fighter' concept altogether? In 3.5, there was a lovely book called Tome of Battle, the Book of Nine Swords. It's here, I'd advice you to read it. That book takes martial classes up a tier or two.
Then, you can either try to adapt that book to pathfinder yourself or scour the internet for other people's abaptations. I think I've seen at least one pathfinder sword sage out there, somewhere.
Anyway, good luck with the whole thing! Don't hesitate to ask (pm) if you've posted something you'd like me to take a look at :) I'm sometimes not on this forum for weeks at a time.
Ah well thank you for pointing out that they are feats as well, I had missed that part. However I want to say that in the goal of bringing the fighter class to a higher tier I do not want to be based around two things: wealth, and magic. I want NO MAGIC at all to be involved with the fighter's form of utility or efficiency. At least if possible. Giving the fighter spells only exacerbates the problem that spells are too strong in comparison to martial options in my opinion. Some things that might work similarly I'm not above if unavoidable however, but one can dream right?
As for wealth I think that if any class or person can buy it, it no longer becomes a class issue, more of a per game and "assumed gold per encounter" issue that is in the realm of DM rule more than the player's level of input. I wouldn't want to hinder a fighter just because a DM doesn't want to hand out a lot of magic items.
Feats I'm not exactly opposed to, but again, I would like to make the fighter have options only THEY have access to, just like how only some classes can get rage, or favored enemy, or other unique abilities.
And I'm actually extremely acquainted with the Tome of Battle! It's probably my most used 3.5 book that I owned before putting it into storage. Dreamscarred Press released the Path of War which is a fantastic update to the maneuver system and precisely where the Myrmidon fighter (which has maneuvers) comes from. I adore their changes to the system and greatly enjoy the classes, however I did say in my opening words that my players are not used to the system and have not expressed the interest in using it as of yet, so that's why I returned to dusting this off to attempt finishing it's designs (and accidentally made it worse in some regards, but progress comes with pain). Still though, thank you for the input and suggestion. So far I already have a lot of good ideas for what might need cutting off entirely or trimmed down, and possibly what should be more focused on, and might have a changed version up in the next day or two.
Well, if you are familiar with Path of War:
Have you considered a class feature granting gambit system as well (maybe success in combat grants 1 Grit further benefiting the Grit system).
I always found gambit the cool new system.
And now that we have additional recovery of grit we can lower Crit from the Level mechanic as that is way too high compared to other Grit users.
Most Grit users have 3 +Stat at most (usually just Stat mod=grit), need extra grit feat for more.
Warlord and Hidden Blade rogues are good examples:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/dreamscarred- press-rogue-archetypes/hidden-blade-rogue-archetype/
Even if player never utilizes it, the benefit for a mental should be there.
Well, if you are familiar with Path of War:
Have you considered a class feature granting gambit system as well (maybe success in combat grants 1 Grit further benefiting the Grit system).
I always found gambit the cool new system.And now that we have additional recovery of grit we can lower Crit from the Level mechanic as that is way too high compared to other Grit users.
Most Grit users have 3 +Stat at most (usually just Stat mod=grit), need extra grit feat for more.
Warlord and Hidden Blade rogues are good examples:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/dreamscarred- press-rogue-archetypes/hidden-blade-rogue-archetype/Even if player never utilizes it, the benefit for a mental should be there.
Hmm, no I hadn't actually thought of that. A gambit like system would be a pretty cool mechanic for some of the stuff the Fighter could spec in definitely. Honestly though one of the biggest reasons I was attempting to keep the grit from being stat based is to avoid an over synergy with one of the "Mental stat to attacks or damage" prowess abilities that they can pick up, since I was worried about if I tied it to something other than level it would make the corresponding stat 'too good'.
Other than gunslinger and the occasional archetype though who else even uses grit? I know the swashbuckler has Panache but I thought they didn't overlap. As it stands my notes have the grit per level change to 3 at first level, +1 point total for every 4 fighter levels for 7 total points. With a possible way to implement something like Gambit and it giving grit back this might not be a bad number really. They would have less grit to work with on average but 3 ways to renew it instead of the usual 2.
And I'll look at that archetype when I can, the site seems to be doing server maintenance.
I'm attempting to implement the idea of the Gambits mechanic into a different design of the class, but I'm having a couple of hiccups in trying to think of good ways to balance it out, especially the bonuses to them.
I'm thinking about the suggestion to tie Grit and the gambits to a mental stat, and was wondering what the opinions on actually allowing the fighter to pick which of the three main stats they actually get to use are. This might make the "use that stat for attacks/damage Prowess abilities too good, but since I am also changing the Combat School stuff a bit I am considering taking those out and focusing primarily on the fighter being more focused on versatility and breaking Action Economy in combat as it's main deal for this design. Thoughts?
Just pitching in, panache, grit, and luck all overlap. Also I like these changes a lot and I'll probably implement some of them next time I start a new campaign
Alright it's been a little while but I've finally managed to work a bit on a new write up of the concept. This time around I attempted to tie in the Gambits and really focus on the Fighter being the "potential master of any combat field" and focusing on getting the most out of Action Economy with a lot of Swift Action abilities. The gambit's bonuses to allies also fulfill the Fighter's concept as a leader type very nicely.
I've changed things rather extensively, including going in and adjusting/removing Prowess abilities that no longer worked or were just too much to handle. I'm hoping this meets more of the design goals I'd set out for (Tier 3 power level or slightly above). I was rather tired most of the time when working on it so please point out anytyposor discrepancies I may have missed.
Bump for hope.