Are there any houserule sets for projectile weapons that make crossbows and guns more than poor, feat/class-intensive alternatives to longbows? Outside of niche builds, the longbow appears to be far and away the best ranged weapon from innate qualities (martial weapon, insta-reload, +STR to damage, ton of range), feat/item support (extra attacks, +WIS to hit/damage, 19-20/x3 bracers), and deity support (free proficiency for some Clerics, deity-specific feats).
I suspect that increasing crossbow reload time by 1 step (as if by Rapid Reload) if you are proficient with it as a martial weapon would not solve much, given that longbows still have exclusive access to Manyshot, and still add STR to damage. And adding STR in addition to reducing reload time would turn crossbows into a stunted imitation of longbows, without significant differences that make crossbows mechanically distinct, somewhat like the dagger (1d4, P or S, 19-20/x2, simple) and the war razor (1d4, 19-20/x2, S, martial). You wouldn't be shooting yourself in the foot to take the war razor over the dagger (feat/trait support and throwing ability notwithstanding), but to do so would be to intentionally handicap yourself for a weapon name - and a dagger could easily be called and function as a razor.
Maybe if crossbows had an independent STR rating (I think I saw this somewhere else on the boards) that could be used by someone of lesser strength, without accuracy penalties? Perhaps crossbows (probably lever crossbows) can be reloaded by people with a STR equal to the weapon's STR rating as a move action, or could be reloaded by people with an STR modifier up to -2 lower as a full-round action. Thus, a Commoner with 10 strength (+0 modifier) could load a light crossbow with a STR rating of +2 as a full-round action.
Or instead of all that (or in addition to it?), if crossbows could have some sort of snipe mechanic similar to the Gunslinger's Dead Shot ability - basically a free Penetrating Shots or pseudo Vital Strike. If this mechanic multiplied your STR rating, it might possibly have room as a competent weapon next to a longbow, although it would certainly infringe upon the Vital Strike feat chain's territory. A similar mechanic for default guns would be nice to have, although guns are another can of worms.
I'm just tossing up ideas here, does anybody have a functioning ruleset?
Uh.
Well in general. something I offer/have seen offered is cheaper enchanting of the ammo (and not requiring masterwork) but in exchange they're limited to specific kinds of effects. Actually rather than enchanting, I guess its better to refer to them as advanced versions of alchemy.
Basically a list of effects on them, and those effects you can increase. but they're one use.
I'd also extend this to Darts though.
Basically it sorta simulates Grenadier's alchemcial weapon effects. but instead its static (not temporary) and you can increase the effect via costs. you' have to determine the costs yourself though, cause the games previously had bworked money amounts. but i'd err on cheaper. (i am biased though, i already think all the alchemical weapons are already too expensive. Too much earl on when they'd be useful and too much later on for "fun toy weapons" even counting all the gold you get)
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Secondly. Crossbows. Make all of them simple prof. But. They also have a set of better stats for those with martial proficiency. Representing their ability to use it far better than an average joe. So current ones are standard, then up the Dice or crit values, and lower reload innately for martial proficiency folks.
I made the crossbows into "hit over damage" where arrows are "damage over to hit" So the crossbows gain a payable stat like the composite bow. Except, instead of adding +damage, it instead -AC from armour/natarmour from the target. Representing the "piercing effect" With it being higher on the martial stats.
Sure it isn't touch ac like the guns, but it feels very crossbowy and would allow for the atypical crossbow combat in media. Additionally, like the bow, and throwing knives/darts it would have access to thet special shots.
Guns however.. are a bit harder for me to dileniate. their touch ac is already a good feature for it. Honestly I'd just up their base damage, keep most of the rest. and make it represent "one big shot" since its all muskets ands uch, their Ball was always very big, and caused gaping hole wounds.
or this is where to put your innate vital strike idea
but probably very limited special shots.
What I think people would go gaga over is if crossbows (and I guess guns) offered Dex to damage. Maybe with a new feat requiring Precise Shot? I mean, the whole idea is that relatively low-strength people can use a crossbow, while it takes a lot of strength to pull a longbow. Why go for a Str bonus on damage?
bitter lily wrote: What I think people would go gaga over is if crossbows (and I guess guns) offered Dex to damage. Maybe with a new feat requiring Precise Shot? I mean, the whole idea is that relatively low-strength people can use a crossbow, while it takes a lot of strength to pull a longbow. Why go for a Str bonus on damage? I suppose the point in having a STR bonus to crossbows is that the force of bolt is determined by the amount of force you exert on the string. A difference between longbows and crossbows would be that you don't need to be constantly exerting that force on a crossbow string while aiming, and thus your aim isn't penalized by having a lower-than necessary STR bonus, and that you can load crossbows that have higher STR ratings than you. But ultimately, the damage you do with a crossbow depends on how heavy the crossbow's draw is. Although perhaps something larger or different than +2 modifier would be better for crossbows.
Guns would probably need something other than a STR bonus, however. I'm not entirely keen on DEX to damage, since that would invalidate much of the Gunslinger class, but it's one of the better options. Perhaps guns could have some sort of recoil mechanic instead of misfires? So if you don't brace your gun as a certain type of action (move, perhaps?), you suffer a hit penalty equal to the recoil modifier. Alchemical shots and whatnot would increase the recoil modifier instead of the misfire chance. The Quick Clear Gunslinger deed would probably be replaced by some sort of Quick Aim deed, which would let you ignore recoil by spending grit, and maybe ignore grit spending by being prone.
I'd also be interested if guns were some sort of special caster-counter, and could ignore abilities like Wind Wall or Mage Armor, or could do increased damage against things like Wall of Force.
OK, but I'm talking about learning to benefit from not exerting force while aiming -- taking a feat with a 2-feat prereq. Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that at that point you could get DEX to damage?
You started out wanting to give a weapon a decent function, after all.
bitter lily wrote: OK, but I'm talking about learning to benefit from not exerting force while aiming -- taking a feat with a 2-feat prereq. Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that at that point you could get DEX to damage?
You started out wanting to give a weapon a decent function, after all.
Ideally, decent weapon functioning would be included in the proficiency, and not require extra specialization. Feats would be required to turn a weapon that is roughly as good as any other into an exceptional weapon. The crossbow in its current state is usable for simple weapon proficient classes at low levels, but is a flat-out worse option for most martial classes. I'd like to model some mechanic on the bastard sword, where it is functional at its lowest proficiency (Martial for bastard swords, simple for most crossbows), but gets a significant upgrade when used by a more proficient user (Exotic, or martial for houserule crossbows).
I guess what I'm trying to get across is that crossbows should be: (not in order)
1. Usable at its current level when proficient as a simple weapon
2. Competitive with a longbow when used as a martial weapon
3. Performs comparably to other weapons when picked up by an uninvested high-level martial
-Can be used in full attacks or some equivalent ability
-Gets a stat to damage or some equivalent ability
-Doesn't require feats beyond martial weapon proficiency to be useful
4. Has somewhat different mechanics than longbows and guns
5. Maybe seem a bit like a real crossbow without jeopardizing other points
-Long reload time
-Pierces armor
-Can be used effectively by minimally trained soldiers
6. Isn't too complicated
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
My Self wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to get across is that crossbows should be: (not in order)
1. Usable at its current level when proficient as a simple weapon
2. Competitive with a longbow when used as a martial weapon
Certainly crossbows should be easy to use for anyone, and there should exist heavy crossbows with increased pull, so that given additional reloading time, they can be cranked back and do superior damage just like a bow getting a STR bonus. I would allow crossbows to be made with a +1 to +4 damage bonus, but you have to pay for that somehow... probably by increasing the reload time.
My Self wrote: 3. Performs comparably to other weapons when picked up by an uninvested high-level martial
-Can be used in full attacks or some equivalent ability
-Gets a stat to damage or some equivalent ability
-Doesn't require feats beyond martial weapon proficiency to be useful
Certainly not. There is no way that a heavy or superheavy crossbow should be susceptible to a free-action reload rate, in order to get full iterative attacks on a full attack action. No Way. No feat should exist that lowers the reload tiume below a move action, and in many cases it should require more than a move action.
Things like the Crossbow Mastery feat shouldn't exist. Reload times should have a lower limt and be impossible to reduce beyond a certain level. If a heavy crossbow normally takes a full-round action to reload, I could see a feat reducing that to a standard action, and then perhaps to a move action with a superior feat. But not a free action. That's just too OTT. Just like reloading a muzzle-loading firearm as a free action.
Are we talking about "should" or "Does" with RAW?
RAW is that both reloading a crossbow and a firearm can be reduced to a free action, through feats and/or class abilities. Fine. OK, it's magic. Fine. But without magic, I have trouble imagining even some extreme hero reloading his heavy crossbow (especially if you allow super-heavy crossbows with bonus damage points) as a free action and getting off 3 or 4 shots ina single 6-second round. Just like I don't care for the idea of a muzzle-loading firearm (musket, pistol, double hackebut, whatever) being reloaded as a free action. RAW allows it. Fine. But if we are talking "should", then the answer is a different one.
YMMV.
Wheldrake wrote: My Self wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to get across is that crossbows should be: (not in order)
1. Usable at its current level when proficient as a simple weapon
2. Competitive with a longbow when used as a martial weapon
Certainly crossbows should be easy to use for anyone, and there should exist heavy crossbows with increased pull, so that given additional reloading time, they can be cranked back and do superior damage just like a bow getting a STR bonus. I would allow crossbows to be made with a +1 to +4 damage bonus, but you have to pay for that somehow... probably by increasing the reload time.
My Self wrote: 3. Performs comparably to other weapons when picked up by an uninvested high-level martial
-Can be used in full attacks or some equivalent ability
-Gets a stat to damage or some equivalent ability
-Doesn't require feats beyond martial weapon proficiency to be useful
Certainly not. There is no way that a heavy or superheavy crossbow should be susceptible to a free-action reload rate, in order to get full iterative attacks on a full attack action. No Way. No feat should exist that lowers the reload tiume below a move action, and in many cases it should require more than a move action.
Things like the Crossbow Mastery feat shouldn't exist. Reload times should have a lower limt and be impossible to reduce beyond a certain level. If a heavy crossbow normally takes a full-round action to reload, I could see a feat reducing that to a standard action, and then perhaps to a move action with a superior feat. But not a free action. That's just too OTT. Just like reloading a muzzle-loading firearm as a free action.
Are we talking about "should" or "Does" with RAW?
RAW is that both reloading a crossbow and a firearm can be reduced to a free action, through feats and/or class abilities. Fine. OK, it's magic. Fine. But without magic, I have trouble imagining even some extreme hero reloading his heavy crossbow (especially if you allow super-heavy crossbows with bonus... I'd probably want the damage bonus and reload speed have some correlation with strength and the type of crossbow you use. With a regular non-winch crossbow, you pull a string into place using both arms, supporting the draw weight for only a second. A stronger person will find this easier (and faster) than a weaker person, although it won't be faster than a bow. With a winch, this means that a weaker person doesn't ever need the support the full draw weight, but it would slow reload times down further. A sufficiently strong person might be hampered by the winch speed, if they were powerful enough to draw the string back without it. I'd argue that crossbows would have some sort of strength rating, but weaker characters could circumvent it partially or wholly by taking longer to reload (depending on the crossbow type, I guess).
I'd agree on the point that crossbows (and guns) shouldn't have a traditional full attack, but I'd like it to have a baked-in full attack equivalent, so it remains competitive for martials at higher levels (or even mid levels). Hence, the deadshot idea. If Clustered Shots was dropped for bows, this would give crossbows (and maybe guns) a competitive edge for blowing past DR.
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