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Hey guys, I'm GMing Iron Gods, and my party has reached the Palace of the Fallen Stars. They're currently level 14 and nearly every player has had at least one character death.
The only character left from the original party is our Techslinger. Now the other players have started taking notice that this guy is putting out crazy damage each turn while they struggle to dent enemies. And the main problem lies in the Techslinger's ability to hit touch AC. It's infuriating if I'm being honest. Like I said, the other players have taken note and we now have an archer fighter, who, for all intents and purposes should technically have the same damage output. But they don't hit touch AC so they're underperforming by comparison.
One saving grace is that many of the enemies in this AP are constructs, therefore, have hardness, therefore are classified as objects, and therefore take half damage from energy-based attacks. I haven't been enforcing this for our lightning-themed arcanist, but thats in an effort to balance it. Because even when I apply these damage modifiers, the arcanist is just barely keeping up with the damage output of a full round attack from our 'slinger.
I really need advice how to fairly balance this issue. I've spoken with the player. And they themself say they now hate the class. Thinks its broken AF, but because they're the only survivor of the original party they want to see the game through to the end with this character.
I've previously brought the ban-hammer down on Paladins, Summoners, and Zen-archer monks after each of those acted as one-man parties in previous campaigns. But I can't keep adding to that list. I'm desperate for suggestions here guys, what do you think?
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You might want to read up on creatures with hardness in this forum. It's been clarified that creature are not objects and only objects with harness halve elemental damage. Creatures just reduce the damage from the hardness.
I'm not sure why you guys are having a hard time doing damage. None of our characters have been ineffective.
What are the other people playing? Are the optimized at all? Have they not been getting cool gear to kill things with? It sounds like you have a wide gap of character effectiveness. This is definitely one of the times that you raise the others to his level, not the reverse. Give us some more info and we can help ya out.
A laser pistol is a strong weapon. It does the same damage as a longbow, has more than twice the range increment of a gunpowder pistol, has built-in Rapid Shot, hits touch AC, and needs loading only once every 10 shots. It also costs 10,000 gp, can be found only in Numeria, requires 100-gp shimmerdisks to recharge, occasionally glitches, and requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms).
With 10,000 gp, a character could instead buy a +2 composite longbow and have enough money left over for an efficient quiver that can hold 60 arrows. That does not offer free Rapid Shot nor hitting touch AC, but it offers an extra +2 to hit, at least +2 to damage, doesn't glitch, and requires only Martial Proficiency (longbow), which comes free with many classes.
Let's take a look at some tough opponents in the modules. Birdfood has AC 18, touch 14. Kulgara has AC 18, touch AC 11. Zagmaander has AC 21, touch AC 16. Ilarris has AC 21, touch AC 13. An augmented gearsman has AC 23, touch AC 12, hardness 10. Furkas has AC 28, touch AC 16, incorporeal. Nemgedder has AC 27, touch 21. Lrrheck has AC 30, touch AC 19, immune cold, resists fire and electricity 10. A neh-thalggu has AC 21, touch AC 19, DR 10/magic. With Birdfood, Kulgara, Zagmaander, Ilarris, the gearsman, Nemgedder, and the neh-thalggu, the laser pistol has an average +6.1 to hit over an unenchanted longbow, which means +4.1 better than a +2 longbow. That is pretty good. With Furkas, in contrast, a non-magical laser pistol cannot hit an incorporeal opponent. Lrrheck is weird, like many opponents in that module, and resists energy damage much better than physical damage.
We can see that in this adventure path, a laser pistol is better than a +2 longbow. A techslinger has the added advantages of Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms), grit pool to reduce reloading and glitches, and at 5th level, Dexterity to damage. But most of the advantage is from the laser pistol.
So why don't the other characters in your campaign use laser pistols?
In my campaign, currently at 13th level at the beginning of Palace of Fallen Stars, the two PCs with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) each carry a technological pistol. One is a gunslinger, but neither is a techslinger. The skald in the party, in contrast, took Exotic Weapon Proficiency (heavy weaponry) and carries a plasma thrower. However, then facing a robot with hardness 10, most don't draw their technological weapons. Instead, they pull out their adamantine melee weapons to bypass that hardness. The only exception is the gunslinger, who prefers the adamantine tip on her +1 autograpnel. Which does not hit touch AC.
I did make it easy for the PCs to get adamantine weapons. I declared that the town of Torch specializes in exotic metals, so adamantine weapons can be purchased there. And my PCs prefer to start with adamantine ingots and make the weapons themselves. I switched to the Making Craft Work rules to reduce crafting time.
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I've spoken with the player. And they themself say they now hate the class. Thinks its broken AF, but because they're the only survivor of the original party they want to see the game through to the end with this character.
One option is to change the techslinger archetype so it no longer deals crazy damage compared to the other classes. My guess, since no-one else is taking advantage of the technological weapons that hit touch AC, is that Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) is a stumbling block. How about replacing the techslinger's Technic Training ability with an ability to give allies help with their firearms based on the Sensei monk archetype's Advice ability:
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Tech Support (Ex)
A techslinger’s tech support is identical to bardic performance (using oratory) save for starting at 5th level. It allows him to inspire courage at 5th level, inspire competence at 7th level, and inspire greatness at 13th level, as a bard of four levels fewer than the techslinger, usable a total number of rounds per day equal to his level + his Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Feats and masterpieces that require or modify bardic performance can be changed to require or modify tech support instead.
At 11th level, a techslinger can start tech support as a move action instead of a standard action. At 17th level, a techslinger can start a tech support as a swift action.
Tech support's Inspire Courage oratory also grants Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms). If the techslinger has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (heavy weaponry), Inspire Courage grants that, too.
This ability replaces gun training.
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Thus, for a 14th-level techslinger, we check the 10th-level bardic performance and see Inspire Courage +2, Inspire Competence +3, and Inspire Greatness +1. If the party already has a bard, you will have to find another way for the techslinger to share his expertise.
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Basically, just enforce the existing rules.
Even targeting touch AC and with Dex to damage, the techslinger should be less effective against robots than an optimized archer with adamantine arrows; robot hardness is still subtracting 10 points of damage from each shot by the techslinger (note that the Clustered Shots feat only applies vs. DR, not hardness, by RAW), while the archer is hitting for full damage with each shot. Adamantine arrows are 6 gp each, rather than 10 gp per charge for the tech guns, as well.
It mostly sounds as if the techslinger is more optimized than the other party members, which is not a fault with the class/archetype, and also appropriately themed for the AP. A savage technologist barbarian would probably be doing about as well, if not better. Granted, the techslinger gets more appropriate loot in Iron Gods; but that's like saying "witches get more nice things in Reign of Winter," "paladins and clerics get more useful stuff in Wrath of the Righteous," etc.
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You might want to read up on creatures with hardness in this forum. It's been clarified that creature are not objects and only objects with harness halve elemental damage. Creatures just reduce the damage from the hardness.
I'm not sure why you guys are having a hard time doing damage. None of our characters have been ineffective.
No the problem isn't that the others aren't doing damage. Its just that the techslinger cuts through bad guys like a hot knife through butter so there's very little fun to be had for the rest of the party, because after the techslinger has their turn there's only a fraction of the encounter left.
While maybe not min-maxed, I wouldn't say the other PCs are sub-par. It's just that classic problem with Gunslingers and Swashbucklers. There's pretty much just one way to build it. WIthout being completely obtuse. Its not like they can choose what rage powers they get, or the spells they learn. They just have a set of abilities and not building around their proficiencies makes no sense.
It's just that classic problem with Gunslingers and Swashbucklers. There's pretty much just one way to build it. WIthout being completely obtuse. Its not like they can choose what rage powers they get, or the spells they learn. They just have a set of abilities and not building around their proficiencies makes no sense.
My wife went to a lot of trouble to design an unusual gunslinger for our Iron Gods game. She really wanted to play a gadgeteer, but Pathfinder does not offer that class (outside of 3rd-party material). She decided that the Experimental Gunsmith archetype for gunslinger was close enough to start, and then she gave her dwarf Int 14, took the Local Ties and Skymetal Smith campaign traits, and maxed out Knowledge(engineering) and Disable Device. (Yes, I allowed two campaign traits and and a gnome-only archetype.) Her dwarven gunslinger ended up serving in the rogue role for the party. Since Experimental Gunsmith gives up Dexterity to damage for being able to build experimental guns, she is not a heavy damage dealer. Instead, she disables opponents with her autograpnel or Targeting deed. Her gunslinger also learned Technologist, Craft Technological Item, and Craft Technological Arms and Armor.
My wife has been playing D&D since 1979 and Pathfinder since 2009, and has played very unusual characters, such as a melee sorcerer and a true pacifist cleric, without complaints from fellow players. She has system mastery, but optimizes her characters as well-rounded rather than as combat specialists.
I suppose players without her experience might see only one way to play a gunslinger; nevertheless, it is possible. When a combat-optimized gunslinger can dominate encounters, the gunslinger has leeway to optimize less for combat and optimize more for fun.
EDIT: To bring the topic back to the gunslinger in BMO's party, since the other party members can handle the combat if the gunslinger were less effective, then rebuilding the gunslinger to be more interesting to play rather than most devastating in combat will benefit both the gunslinger's player and the other players.
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It's just that classic problem with Gunslingers and Swashbucklers. There's pretty much just one way to build it. WIthout being completely obtuse. Its not like they can choose what rage powers they get, or the spells they learn. They just have a set of abilities and not building around their proficiencies makes no sense.My wife went to a lot of trouble to design an unusual gunslinger for our Iron Gods game. She really wanted to play a gadgeteer, but Pathfinder does not offer that class (outside of 3rd-party material). She decided that the Experimental Gunsmith archetype for gunslinger was close enough to start, and then she gave her dwarf Int 14, took the Local Ties and Skymetal Smith campaign traits, and maxed out Knowledge(engineering) and Disable Device. (Yes, I allowed two campaign traits and and a gnome-only archetype.) Her dwarven gunslinger ended up serving in the rogue role for the party. Since Experimental Gunsmith gives up Dexterity to damage for being able to build experimental guns, she is not a heavy damage dealer. Instead, she disables opponents with her autograpnel or Targeting deed. Her gunslinger also learned Technologist, Craft Technological Item, and Craft Technological Arms and Armor.
My wife has been playing D&D since 1979 and Pathfinder since 2009, and has played very unusual characters, such as a melee sorcerer and a true pacifist cleric, without complaints from fellow players. She has system mastery, but optimizes her characters as well-rounded rather than as combat specialists.
I suppose players without her experience might see only one way to play a gunslinger; nevertheless, it is possible. When a combat-optimized gunslinger can dominate encounters, the gunslinger has leeway to optimize less for combat and optimize more for fun.
EDIT: To bring the topic back to the gunslinger in BMO's party, since the other party members can handle the combat if the gunslinger were less effective, then rebuilding the gunslinger to be more interesting to play rather than...
Definitely sounds like system mastery, blending so many different character options together, I am thoroughly impressed! May I ask how she went about employing her various crafting feats? The crafting system in general makes me break out in hives.
If I'm understanding this correctly, you would suggest I use my all-powerful GM abilities to nerf the techslinger class? Maybe nerf is too strong a word though, but basically re-write how it functions?
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If I'm understanding this correctly, you would suggest I use my all-powerful GM abilities to nerf the techslinger class? Maybe nerf is too strong a word though, but basically re-write how it functions?
Yes. Talk with the techslinger's player, see if he or she wants more out of the character in some area besides combat, and swap the excess combat abilities for the desired abilities.
Definitely sounds like system mastery, blending so many different character options together, I am thoroughly impressed! May I ask how she went about employing her various crafting feats? The crafting system in general makes me break out in hives.
The gunslinger Boffin is not the only crafting character, but the others are mundane crafters and magic item crafters. I replaced the crafting system in the Crafting skill section of the Core Rulebook with the Making Craft Work system.
Technological crafting is modeled after magic item crafting rather than Craft-skill crafting. The main limitation is the requirement for various types of technological laboratories. I declared that the Aurora had a functional nanotech medical lab in it, and the choking tower has an improvised military lab. (I invented the concept of improvised lab: they count as a lab but give a -4 to the Craft rolls.) The unnamed spaceship beneath Torch has a robotics lab and fabrication lab, that I declared functional after Dinvaya Lanalei moved there from Scrapwall and began repairing things. Boffin teamed up with Dinvaya Lanalei and Khonnir Baine to stabilize the nuclear reactor in that ship, but also program it to still vent its excess heat upward to Torch. I had to invent a programming language for that task, Androffan Programming Language (APL--a joke because my wife knows the real APL, A Progamming Language), which Boffin learned in-game by reading the manual and mechanically by putting a rank in Linguistics. The torch in Torch went out for another week during the repairs, so it gained a reputation for more instability. The Technic League keeps away from Torch, because they think Black Hill is about to blow up in a nuclear explosion.
Boffin mostly rebuilds timeworn items so that they are no longer timeworn, because that requires half the raw materials as building from scratch. Heavy use of Greater Make Whole by Dinvaya and the party's skald further reduce the costs. Technological crafting would be too expensive without those cheats. The party found a ruined suit of powered armor and Boffin is saving up for the raw materials to repair it.
The most impressive technological crafting in my campaign is the party and Dinvaya teaming up, hiring workers, and spending two months digging out and repairing the haunted wreck in the valley of mists in Scrapwall. The module said it was irreparable, but I changed that. The Technic League heard rumors of this salvage operation and sent a 6-person 10th-level team to investigate, but they were too late and the party escaped by flying off in the spaceship. Over the next few modules, Boffin set up an adamantine smelter powered by the nuclear reactor in the spaceship and a full workshop and robotics lab in the engine room. My wife is careful not to abuse the excessive wealth of the spaceship. It serves only as transportation and a mobile home and workshop. Boffin and Val Baine teamed up to create a cover story for their adamantine source, B&B Alchemical Smelting, and built a warehouse 3 miles from Torch to park and hide the spaceship when they are in town. I also discovered that Pathfinder has no rules for smelting, so I invented them.
Boffin needed a pilot for the spaceship, so she took Leadership and I added a character to Hellion's minions: a repair drone named DW5 that was programmed as the driver/pilot of the excavator. DW5 became Boffin's cohort, renamed Dwalin. As Dwalin leveled up, Boffin modified it to true intelligence. Later, Dwalin took levels as a cleric of Brigh. Dwalin stays with the spaceship to guard it while the party adventures. Boffin also rebuilt one of the collector robots, who she uses as a scout. She is planning on wiring Casandalee's compact AI into the spaceship controls in order to have an intelligent spaceship, and rebuild another collector robot for Casandalee to use as a remote unit.
My wife thinks that this is much more fun than being good at combat.
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You've already banned paladins and zen archers for being too strong. However, if you keep banning the strongest option, then the second-strongest option will just be the new strongest option.
You mention the arcanist can't keep up in damage with the gunslinger. That's not strange, that's normal. Arcanists get way more different abilities with far-reaching consequences while gunslingers are mainly good at one thing. If the arcanist could keep up with the one thing the gunslinger is really good at, and also still do all the other arcanist things, then the arcanist would be extremely OP.
I think a problem here is that it's starting to look like a DPR competition. That's not really something you want in your campaign, because best case is that there's 2-3 winners out of 4-6 players, but most likely there'll be one player winning most of the time.
And it really isn't what makes RPGs fun (for me). What I think is missing is more division of labor. If the only "problem" is an enemy with HP, then you only need one sort of craftsman and you take the best one. But if an encounter involves a lot of different moving parts, then each PC is needed to solve different problems.
Example: the players are invading a chamber in which a robot overlord lairs. He's used cameras and observer bots to spy on the players and he knows what to expect. So the room is filled with thick smoke that causes trouble breathing and obstructs vision. This is a problem for the gunslinger, but the arcanist might be able to use Gust of Wind spells to clear a firing line for him. However, that clean area will only last for so long if the smoke-belching apparatus continues working. So someone needs to get there and destroy it. But it's heavily armored to a disarm/rogueish approach will probably work better than trying to blow through heaps of HP. Meanwhile, guardian critters are converging on the party from all directions hidden by the smoke (but using built-in radar functioning as blindsight) and the party will need a melee guy to keep them safe.
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You've already banned paladins and zen archers for being too strong. However, if you keep banning the strongest option, then the second-strongest option will just be the new strongest option.
That's exactly my point, I can't just keep bringing down the ban hammer on everything or there'll be nothing left. So I need more creative solutions.
Example: the players are invading a chamber in which a robot overlord lairs. He's used cameras and observer bots to spy on the players and he knows what to expect. So the room is filled with thick smoke that causes trouble breathing and obstructs vision. This is a problem for the gunslinger, but the arcanist might be able to use Gust of Wind spells to clear a firing line for him. However, that clean area will only last for so long if the smoke-belching apparatus continues working. So someone needs to get there and destroy it. But it's heavily armored to a disarm/rogueish approach will probably work better than trying to blow through heaps of HP. Meanwhile, guardian critters are converging on the party from all directions hidden by the smoke (but using built-in radar functioning as blindsight) and the party will need a melee guy to keep them...
Excellent suggestion. I suppose I forgot that combats can include non-combat elements. We have a Rogue as well in the party, and making greater use of the environment will not only add to the complexity of encounters but also the options available to engage enemies. I like it, I'll try tweaking encounters accordingly.
Communal resist energy at CL 11 will ruin the techslingers day.
I am not so impressed with the tech guns because most of them are trivial to counter with a single 2nd or 3rd level spell. If the enemies are at all competent they will either know beforehand of the techslinger and his laser or after one round of him devastating them, figure out that Resist energy might be a good idea.
Most of the robot enemies use lasers or plasma with a few using sonic. Our group has three casters able to use resist energy and protection from energy. So we are not that afraid of the lazors. Even 4d10 heavy laser has trouble penetrating Fire resist 30. Chainguns, missiles and disintegrators though, they are really dangerous.
And those androids tossing grenades, gods they were annoying.
Your techslinger is shining now because he will suck later on. Don't know what weapon he uses, but assuming it is laser, you'll run into a few fire inmune creatures, and the rest will have resist, or will be able to cast Resist Energy