So this season in PFS the elemental races became legal and i saw the Undine feat Hydraulic maneuver
Prerequisites: Hydraulic push spell-like ability, undine.
Benefit: You may use hydraulic push to attempt a bull rush, disarm, dirty trick (blind or dazzle), or trip combat maneuver. Each time you use hydraulic push, you must decide which of the allowed combat maneuvers you want to perform. You may use this feat with your hydraulic push racial spell-like ability, your class-granted use of hydraulic push, or any hydraulic push spells you cast, but not with magic items or other external sources that use that spell.
Normal: Hydraulic push can only be used to make a bull rush combat maneuver.
And all i could think of, gotto get me some of that sweet water action.
Now it seems very clear that the spell allows you to make a trip combat maneuver with the feat. But how does this interact with a feat that gives you a free or swift action following a trip? Like say, Riptide Attack
Prerequisites: Improved Drag, Improved Trip.
Benefit: When you succeed at a trip combat maneuver, you may automatically make a drag combat maneuver against your tripped target as a swift action. Your base attack bonus for the drag check is the same as the base attack bonus you used for the trip check. The drag attempt provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Could I:
1) make a swift drag maneuver as part of the initial maneuver and pull the target closer to me? (like from 25ft range)
2) Blast a target 5 feet away, 5 foot step (free action) and then use the swift action to drag my tripped back? (so trip from range and then drag from melee)
3) Blast a target from within my reach (longarm/enlarge/reach weapon) trp him and then drag it back? (so trip AND drag from reach range)
And while i'm on it. Why does Riptide Attack say
The drag attempt provokes attacks of opportunity as normal
When you need the Improved Drag feat that specifically says:
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a drag combat maneuver. ?
In the same vein what about Squash Flat?
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Merciless Rush, worshiper of Rovagug.
Benefit: Whenever you make a bull rush attack and your combat maneuver check exceeds the target’s CMD by 5 or more, you can attempt to trip the target as part of your bull rush as a free action. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
That specifically states that the trip attempt is PART of the bullrush action. Does that mean you can bullrush with Hydraulic Push and then immediately trip after?
And would this work with the Oceans Domain ability Surge (su)
Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the icicle power of the Water domain.
Surge (Su): As a standard action, you can cause a mighty wave to appear that pushes or pulls a single creature. Make a combat maneuver check against the target, using your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier as your CMB. If successful, you may pull or push the creature as if using the bull rush or drag combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
or with this the Wind subdomain windblast (su) power?
Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the lightning arc power of the Air domain.
Wind Blast (Su): As a standard action, you can unleash a blast of air in a 30-foot line. Make a combat maneuver check against each creature in the line, using your caster level as your base attack bonus and your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier. Treat the results as a bull rush attempt. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Or the Sylphs alternate racial trait Breeze kissed (SU, i think)
Breeze-Kissed
Breezes seem to follow most sylphs wherever they go, but some sylphs are better able to control these winds than others. A sylph with this racial trait surrounds herself with swirling winds, gaining a +2 racial bonus to AC against nonmagical ranged attacks. The sylph can calm or renew these winds as a swift action. Once per day, the sylph can channel this wind into a single gust, making a bull rush or trip combat maneuver attempt against one creature within 30 feet. Whether or not the attempt succeeds, the winds are exhausted and no longer provide a bonus to the sylph’s AC for 24 hours. This is a supernatural ability. This racial trait replaces air affinity.
(like a druid who thinks he is the wrath of the ocean made manifest)
And finally, i presume that the benefits of the improved and greater maneuver feats work with these spells. So you can get the bonuses and the maneuvers provoke attacks from your alles as you Push/trip/drag or Push&trip or trip&drag your victims over the battlefield. That is Correct, right? And completely RAW.
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Now it seems very clear that the spell allows you to make a trip combat maneuver with the feat. But how does this interact with a feat that gives you a free or swift action following a trip? Like say, Riptide Attack
[i] Prerequisites: Improved Drag, Improved Trip.
Benefit: When you succeed at a trip combat maneuver, you may automatically make a drag combat maneuver against your tripped target as a swift action. Your base attack bonus for the drag check is the same as the base attack bonus you used for the trip check. The drag attempt provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
For the record, the drag maneuver is it's own action (swift), even if it gives you the option automatically. If the target is too far away, to drag, after tripping, this will matter. The Hydrallic push spell is only giving you the trip, with the drag being something you'd have to do with your own body. So if after you tripped them with this spell, they were physically close enough to attempt a drag maneuver (not with the spell, but with your normal PC), then you could do so as a swift action thanks to this feat.
As for why riptide attack would mention AoOs as normal. Not provoking is normal if you already have improved drag, but not all characters with this feat will have that feat too. Rangers, in particular, have lots of feat access without meeting prerequisite feats. So they write them to account for characters that don't have the prerequisites. There are also a handful of higher level class abilities/feats, which ignore the improved feats and you provoke anyway.
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As for the spells benefiting from the feats, yes, I believe they do apply. That said, I don't think you can benefit from feats that alter the effects of the spell, unless they say that they do specifically for spells (like hydrallic Maneuver).
So for example, Having Improved Bull Rush won't prevent you from provoking when you cast the spell, "Hydrallic Push," but it would give the +2 modifier to your bull rush attempt. Greater Bull Rush would apply as written.
But not all feats that modify bull rush will apply, mainly because most bull rush feats assume that you are physically close to your target. For example, Greater Trip provokes when they trip. Normally this would grant you an extra swing, but if using hydrallic maneuvers, you might not be close enough to take advantage of this bonus attack.
Anyway, the main drawback to Hydrallic Maneuvers is that it only applies to that one spell-like ability, which you can only do once per day.
So for example, Having Improved Bull Rush won't prevent you from provoking when you cast the spell, "Hydrallic Push," but it would give the +2 modifier to your bull rush attempt. Greater Bull Rush would apply as written.
I was never questioning whether the improved bullrush would prevent AoO when casting spells that make CM's. Spellcasting and performing a CM on a target are two different provoking actions. And you usually stand a safe distance from your target when casting these spells anyway.
But not all feats that modify bull rush will apply, mainly because most bull rush feats assume that you are physically close to your target. For example, Greater Trip provokes when they trip. Normally this would grant you an extra swing, but if using hydraulic maneuvers, you might not be close enough to take advantage of this bonus attack.
I wasn't counting on any free CM's that came with bullrushes made as melee attacks. I specifically used these two feats because they never specified that the maneuver is made with a melee attack (i believe there are other ranged options for maneuvers with ranged tactics and the APG. And the AoO from the greater feats are not meant for me, they are meant for all the allies whom i push or drag the sorry sod past with Surge
Anyway, the main drawback to Hydrallic Maneuvers is that it only applies to that one spell-like ability, which you can only do once per day.
Except it literally states that you can use it with spells (arcane casters and druids/shamans) or class features (monk ki powers) too. Which makes for an hilarious maneuver monk that uses hydraulic pushes, a better water bender then a kineticist imo.
One of the things i would eventually like cleared up in an FAQ if what surge is supposed to be exactly. And if hydraulic maneuvers would apply to them as well. Partially because the abilities are so similar in flavor and what they do, and partially because they need to errata it anyway because the didn't specify the range (while they did intend for it to be ranged in an FAQ).
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Hmmm....did not realize that the monk could take hydrallic as a ki option. That is interesting. And for the record, I was pretty tired last night when I posted, so I hope I didn't come off as harsh, I was just trying to answer your questions.
You are also correct that ranged maneuvers do exist. Using bolas for ranged trip attack, even if doing so gave the "automatic option to spend a free action to attempt another maneuver," I would argue that you'd have to be in range to attempt this second maneuver (free action, but it's still it's own maneuver). And by in range, I mean you couldn't do it with bolas.
So, no, I don't think you can use hydralic push to drag them around in this manner. I do think you could push or trip them, and if in melee afterewards, could take that free drag maneuver. I don't think you can use the hydralic push to make additional maneuvers, or actions, after casting the spell.
Hmmm....did not realize that the monk could take hydrallic as a ki option. That is interesting. And for the record, I was pretty tired last night when I posted, so I hope I didn't come off as harsh, I was just trying to answer your questions.
You didn't come across as harsh at all. And yea, when I found out about the monk option I was intrigued as well, not sure if vanilla monk or unchained intrigues me more.
You are also correct that ranged maneuvers do exist. Using bolas for ranged trip attack, even if doing so gave the "automatic option to spend a free action to attempt another maneuver," I would argue that you'd have to be in range to attempt this second maneuver (free action, but it's still it's own maneuver). And by in range, I mean you couldn't do it with bolas.So, no, I don't think you can use hydralic push to drag them around in this manner. I do think you could push or trip them, and if in melee afterewards, could take that free drag maneuver. I don't think you can use the hydralic push to make additional maneuvers, or actions, after casting the spell.
If you'd want to drag, you'd have to do it with a reach weapon or long arm though. If you had to 5ft step to get in range (as a free action), you'd forgo any further movement, and thus be unable to drag.
I might actually make a separate post about that...