Adenai
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I finally had a chance to use this spell today during a game however the GM and I disagreed on how the spell works.
I believe that the spell adds the Skeleton/Zombie template to the dead creature.
The GM believes that the spell either raises a simple CR 1/2 Human Zombie or Skeleton regardless of the creature the spell is used on or Raises a number of basic Human Skeletons/Zombies equal to the HD of the corpse the spell is used on.
I'd appreciate a reply from someone with some sort of authority because regardless of replies in favor of either party it's unlikely they will be swayed by anyone not a part of Paizo
| GM Lamplighter |
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If you want Paizo input, you need to be in the rules forum... but I doubt you'll get it since this is not even close to a grey area. Paizo has already told us how this works.
Note the line "...turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies..."
If you then look up "skeleton" or "zombie" in the bestiary, it tells you in black and white how to "turn a corpse into a skeleton or zombie" - you apply the template to the base creature. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that allows you to change the base creature.
Christopher Senz
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If you want Paizo input, you need to be in the rules forum... but I doubt you'll get it since this is not even close to a grey area. Paizo has already told us how this works.
Note the line "...turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies..."
If you then look up "skeleton" or "zombie" in the bestiary, it tells you in black and white how to "turn a corpse into a skeleton or zombie" - you apply the template to the base creature. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that allows you to change the base creature.
Their argument is that e spell does not specifically say to apply the template to a creature and that rather than the word skeleton or zombie being a descriptor it's the name of the actual creature as displayed in the beastiary
| BigNorseWolf |
Their argument is that e spell does not specifically say to apply the template to a creature and that rather than the word skeleton or zombie being a descriptor it's the name of the actual creature as displayed in the beastiary
The spell tells you to use a template
Templates
A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to transform it into a different monster. It gives precise directions on how to change the original monster's statistics to transform it into the new monster.
Acquired Templates: This kind of template is added to a creature well after its birth or creation.
Inherited Templates: This kind of template is part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Creatures are born or created with these templates already in place, and have never known life without them.
A template is by definition applied to a monster, they don't need to spell it out in the spell or the particular template. its like how spells don't all say "requires line of sight": its a basic assumption of spells from the magic chapter.
| GM Lamplighter |
Under the GM's logic, dragons only exist in the three age categories presented in the Bestiary... ;)
It doesn't matter that the spell doesn't say to use a template - the spell says it makes a skeleton, and the Bestiary tells you that the way you do that is to apply a template to the base creature.
“Skeleton” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
There is no such thing as a "skeleton" - there are only "X skeleton", where "X" is a corporeal creature that has a skeletal system. The stats for a "human skeleton" are presented, but you can only make a "human skeleton" if you start with a "human". If you start with a roc, you get a roc skeleton. Any other reading of the rules is not really defendable.
| Majuba |
I feel a bit for your GM, this is not an easy spell to adjudicate on the fly. But GM Lamplighter is quite correct, it applies the template to the base creature just as you thought.
And as long as you were at least 8th level, you could make a Roc skeleton (16 HD). You'd have to be 16th to make a Roc Zombie.
I recommend mentioning to the GM at the start of the session that you prepare (or know) animate dead and sometimes cast it. Also that you're completely willing to do all the work of adding the template, using your handy printed sheet detailing the template changes.
| Grimmy |
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Their argument is that e spell does not specifically say to apply the template to a creature and that rather than the word skeleton or zombie being a descriptor it's the name of the actual creature as displayed in the beastiary
This is where he's getting confused. What the bestiary is giving you is a sample of one creature with the template applied. It's for convenience.
Show him the werewolf and vampire bestiary entries. Does he really think every vampire has to be a female human sorcerer level 8?
Also, how many ranks to make a rock lobster?