Additional attacks from Haste or Ki Pool and their bonuses


Rules Questions


Suppose a 3rd-level character has Two-Weapon Fighting and fights with two short swords.
If his normal attack bonus with the short sword is +6, when making a full attack with both hands, it becomes +4/+4.

Now suppose he benefits from Haste.

Haste:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

When he makes a full attack, does the extra attack get the full normal bonus +6, his actual highest bonus (as if making a two-handed full attack AND a bonus single-handed one), or the highest among the attacks of the full attack he's making, thus +4 (so the extra attack becomes somewhat part of the full attack)?

This question came from looking at the Monk's Ki Pool, so now imagine the above character is a Monk.
At level 3, he has a real BAB of +2, and let's say he has +2 from Strength. A single unarmed strike from him has a +4 bonus.
On a Flurry of Blows, his BAB is considered +3, and he takes a -2 to both attacks (which are made as if using Two-Weapon Fighting), thus +3/+3.
Now, when he's either hasted or spends 1 point from his Ki Pool to get an extra attack during the flurry, what's the "highest attack bonus" to use? His normal +4, his full attack flurry +3, or his flurry bonus but as if he wasn't fighting two-handed for this attack, thus +5?


If you're using flurry or twf the penalties still apply, but you are using your full BAB each time.

So all it means it you don't get the penalty from iterative attacks to your BAB. You add strength as normal, you add any penalties as appropriate. (TWF and flurry penalties apply to all attacks made during your turn, which would include extra attacks granted by haste or Ki).

The only part which is weird is that when a monk flurry his BAB changes, but you would use that flurry BAB when making a flurry and gaining the extra attacks. If you moved (and therefore could not flurry) you would use your (worse) non-flurry BAB with the extra attack (except haste and Ki both require making a full round attack in order to get those extra attacks anyways).

Edit: Also I want to make sure the distinction of BAB is understood because it is important. BAB is granted only by your class levels. It does not include bonuses to attack rolls such as strength and enhancement, nor does it include penalties.

The only classes that have a weird variable BAB are classes with Flurry, otherwise every class has BAB based solely on their class levels.

However, you attack bonus is your BAB + str (or dex as appropriate) + enhancement bonus + other things that apply. And these get added to the extra attacks granted by haste or ki as they normally would.

Was I clear enough?

To more directly answer your question.

Assuming you are TWF with two identical light weapons (no bonuses apply to one weapon and not the other) and have the Two Weapon Fighting feat you should have identical bonuses to hit with each attack. If you get haste, you will get a 3rd attack with the same exact bonus to hit. In your case that appears to be a +4 for your example. For you monk it's a +3 in your example while flurrying.


Don't forget the +1 to all attacks granted by Haste.

The character would be attacking at +5/+5/+5


Snowlilly wrote:

Don't forget the +1 to all attacks granted by Haste.

The character would be attacking at +5/+5/+5

True, good point. The TWF character would be attacking at +5/+5/+5 and the monk at +4/+4/+4, with that +1 increase being from haste not because of the weird way in which the OP was trying to calculate the attack bonus (I believe due to a misunderstanding about the nature of BAB and penalties to attack rolls).


Claxon wrote:
Edit: Also I want to make sure the distinction of BAB is understood because it is important. BAB is granted only by your class levels. It does not include bonuses to attack rolls such as strength and enhancement, nor does it include penalties.

You're teaching a fish how to swim, here. :D

In fact, I also made a distinction between BAB and attack bonus.

Claxon wrote:
True, good point. The TWF character would be attacking at +5/+5/+5 and the monk at +4/+4/+4, with that +1 increase being from haste not because of the weird way in which the OP was trying to calculate the attack bonus (I believe due to a misunderstanding about the nature of BAB and penalties to attack rolls).

Dunno what the weird part was...

Level 3 Monk, most normal attack: +2 BAB, +2 Str = +5
Level 3 Monk, flurrying: +3 BAB, +2 Str, -2 from fighting with two weapons = +3/+3
Level 3 Monk, flurrying without penalties (with the assumption that since he can only spend the Ki point within the flurry, but the bonus is the "highest", he doesn't apply two-weapon penalties): +3 BAB, +2 Str = +5 (which, added to the regular flurry, would end giving +5/+3/+3).

Snowlilly wrote:

Don't forget the +1 to all attacks granted by Haste.

The character would be attacking at +5/+5/+5

Yep, I wasn't adding it just because it wasn't relevant for the question (especially since my focus was on the flurry).

Anyway, thanks. Using the highest bonus of of the full attack you're making sure is the easiest association, but I got the doubt because... well, because the words "highest attack bonus" don't consider there may be different "highest" ones at the same time, depending on the perspective given to the attack.


To aid in distinction, remember that it says "highest BASE attack bonus".

So a guy with base attack bonus of 7 would have highest base attack bonus of 7, and because it is an attack that is part of the regular full-attack action it also takes the bonuses and penalties of that action.


The cases I brought all use the highest BAB, as far as iterative attacks are concerned (I used examples with BAB < 6 exactly to avoid making confusion with iterative attacks). But the highest varies depending on the perspective. The Monk has two different "highest", and the two-weapon penalty isn't part of the flurry BAB, nor is it openly stated that it must be applied to the extra attack.


well, it would depend on what you're using. Remember that there's only ever one "highest base attack bonus": that number is equal to your current base attack bonus.

So say a monk who, for whatever reason, has both two-weapon fighting and flurry of blows.

Pretend he is level 4, has a strength of 20, and somehow has the effects of haste.

If he uses flurry of blows, his BaB is effectively 4. This means he gets 3 attacks, all at a base attack bonus of 4, then are further modified by the two-weapon fighting penalties, haste's flat +1, and his strength bonus. This results in +8 to-hit on all 3 of his attacks. Note, even, that this effective BaB works for every aspect of the monk, including if he can make iterative attacks.

If he uses two-weapon fighting, his BaB is 3. This means he gets 3 attacks, all at a base attack bonus of 3, then are further modified by the two-weapon fighting penalties, haste's flat +1, and his strength bonus. This results on +7 to hit for his attacks.

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