Order of the Paw & Charger

[Azullius Koujou]

Are order of the Paw penalized for taking the "Charger" archtype on their mount?

It's supposed to be a bonus to the mount, but the way it's written sounds like this bonus is instead a penalty for this order.

Order of the paw says:
"Challenge: Whenever an order of the paw cavalier issues a challenge, his mount gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC as long it is threatening the target of the cavalier's challenge and the cavalier is riding the mount. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses."

Charger Archtype says:

"Mounted Challenge (Ex)

When ridden by a cavalier, chargers gain half of the bonuses and penalties granted by the cavalier's challenge class feature.

This ability replaces share spells*.
does this actually penalise the mount?"

Did this just take away half the bonus instead of giving half a bonus?
Or could there be some luck involved with it being "Dodge bonuses" ?

[Java Man]

The mount gets half the bonuses the rider gets from challenge with charger, order bonus is separate and not effected.

[Azullius Koujou]

But the rider in order of the paws case do not get a bonus. Or is it the standard challenge and not the order challenge it effects?

Ah the mount would get the standard bonus from the challenge, but the order of the paw bit would have issues, correct?

I suppose nvm, since you said that order part is separate and should be ignored.

[Java Man]

Charger does not interact with the order bonus.

[Saldiven]

Java Man is correct.

Charger says that it gets 1/2 the bonus the Cavalier gets from the Challenge.

Order of the Paw gives zero bonus to the Cavalier and a scaling bonus to the mount.

So, the mount would get the normal effect from the Order's Challenge, and then nothing additional from the Charger rule.

It wouldn't be a penalty, but it wouldn't get that particular benefit of the Charger archetype.

[Azullius Koujou]

Hmm...

"Saldiven", didn't "Java man" say that Order should be ignored for this since it's a separate bonus?

So it's the Challenge part on the cavaliers main page not the part under the order the "Charger is refering to"

[Java Man]

Saldiven has my point correct. Order of the paw gives a new bonus to the mount, this is not changed by having a charger. The charger gets half the challenge bonus the cav gets, that is the normal challenge bonus, not the order specific add on in this case.

[Azullius Koujou]

I know this might seem like a bit of cutting it into pieces for me, but.
Are you saying the sampled Order gets:
1) Less out of being charger than the standard order
2) the same as other orders
3) more than other orders

[Java Man]

2) same as other orders.

You are fixated on the order's additional challenge bonus, charger is only interacting with the primary effects of challenge in this case, as the order specific part is not a bonus on the cavalier, and hence the charger does not share half of it, it gets the whole mount specific bonus, cause its the mount.

[Azullius Koujou]

I suppose I should make a different sample.

Cavalier challenge = 1 point
Cavalier Order bonus = 1 point

Sample 1)
Standard Cavalier with charger bonus:
Rider: 1 from order +1 from challenge
Mount: 0.5 from Charger

Total Regular value = 2.5

Order of the Paw sample:
Rider: 1 from Challenge, 0 from Order
Mount: 1 from order + 0 from charger

Total Paw value = 2

If this is how it is order of the paw lost out on half a power.

However if charger only interact with the default challenge and not the part listed under the order:

Sample 2)
Standard Cavalier with charger bonus:
Rider: 1 from order +1 from challenge
Mount: 0.5 from Charger

Total Regular value = 2.5

Order of the Paw sample:
Rider: 1 from Challenge, 0 from Order
Mount: 1 from order + 0.5 from charger

Total Paw value = 2.5.

My problem is at some point i feel like you guys are saying "sample 1" is the case and at others i think your supporting "sample 2" is the case
The real issue is though I might not be the best at forming my question.

[Saldiven]

Ok, I fear that I was not as complete in my explanation as I should have been since I didn't see the complexity of the issue. I apologize for not being more clear.

The issue is that the vast majority of Order specific Challenges give benefit to the Cavalier himself, and nothing to the mount. The Charger archetype lets the Mount gain a portion of that Cavalier's bonus.

Order of the Paw is one of the few that do the opposite, providing a benefit to the Mount, but not really any direct benefit to the Cavalier.

The standard effect of the Challenge is for the Cavalier to do a bit more damage on his/her hits equal to his Cavalier level. As specified in the class ability, each Order has an additional effect that is conveyed by the Challenge.

Let's look at Order of the Paw at 1st level.

During the Challenge, the Cavalier gets +1 damage to targets of the challenge and grants +1 AC (Dodge) to his/her mount. With the Charger archetype, the Mount would also get +1/2 a point of damage, as that is the only benefit the Challenge is granting to the Cavalier.

Compare that to, say, the Order of the Sword at 1st level.

During the Challenge, the Cavalier gets +1 damage (the standard challenge bonus) and +1 to hit. The Mount is granted no direct benefit from the Challenge. However, the Charger archetype grants the Mount +1/2 to both to hit and damage.

A third example might be the Order of the Tome at 1st level.

During the Challenge, the Cavalier gets +1 damage and +2 to saving throws against affects generated by the subject of the Challenge. The Mount gains nothing directly from the Challenge, but the Archetype would grant +1/2 damage and +1 for saving throws.

Now look at the Order of the Staff.

During the Challenge, the Cavalier gets +1 damage and the target of the Challenge suffers a -1 penalty on saving throws against spells and spell like abilities for one round after being hit by the Cavalier. The Mount gains nothing directly from the Challenge. The archetype grants the Mount +1/2 damage, but nothing else because the Cavalier gets nothing else from the Challenge.

So, you can see that every different Order interacts with the Charger archetype in a different manner. Some Orders have much better synergy with that archetype than others, but that is something that can be said about a lot of different combinations that exist in Pathfinder.

[Java Man]

Everyone is saying it is the second example.