Killing blows and nonlethal damage

[Linea Lirondottir]

Several abilities refer to making a killing blow (defined as dropping them to 0 hp or below with an attack, like a Swashbuckler's Panache or the Recovered Rage feat) in order to trigger regaining a resource. However, when looking at the "Whirling Dervish" archetype for the Swashbuckler I found a very interesting rule: "A whirling dervish does not gain any panache for dropping a foe below 0 hit points unless that foe is an evil outsider or undead, or if the damage she dealt was nonlethal."

This seems to indicate that inflicting sufficient nonlethal damage to drop an opponent is meant to count as a "killing blow" for the purpose of these abilities. Can anyone confirm that this is RAI? It certainly seems to be Rules-As-Makes-Sense as at least most the time knocking somebody unconscious should have basically the same effect as putting them into a position where they're unconscious and bleeding out (or even just staggered and barely into the fight if they're dropped to precisely 0 hp, as rare as that'd be), and it's just worded that way because "trying to kill the opponent" is the default assumption.

Thank you for your time.

[Lilith Knight]

RAW it doesn't indicate any particular type of damage which would be very easy to include if they mean it to matter. The only argument against it is that a KILLING blow should be lethal, but that's a very weak argument, especially since we aren't even actually talking about killing the person, just knocking them unconscious. SO I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to call it RAI.

[Pizza Lord]

Unless it says 'knocking a foe unconscious' then it wouldn't. If it says dropping them below 0 hit points, then it doesn't matter how much non-lethal you inflict because non-lethal damage adds up from 0 and builds until it equals current hit points or greater. At no point does non-lethal drop a person below 0 hit points.

Now if it was a non-lethal critical hit, and you regain pool for critical hits, then that would work, unless it says it must be lethal damage,

[Andy Brown]

Pizza Lord wrote:

At no point does non-lethal drop a person below 0 hit points.

Sure it can. From the Nonlethal Damge section of the combat rules:

Quote:

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage.

You just need to do a *lot* of nonlethal damage

[Wei Ji the Learner]

So is this creating a new section of rules for non-lethal CdG on helpless folks?

[Linea Lirondottir]

Yes, by RAW it clearly doesn't count since hit points are not actually decreasing below 0. However, since the intention seems to be about the rush of victory from downing an enemy yourself I think that the RAI would include hitting them with enough nonlethal damage to at least stagger them. (Since getting them to 0 hp is sufficient to trigger the effects)

Also, by RAW even somebody with Diehard and Deathless Initiate would trigger the effect if they were dropped to negative hit points even though they're still in the fight in all the ways that matter; I don't think that the class features and feats were particularly well-written.

As for CdG... not really? I mean, it'd be a perfectly sensible rule (if fairly brutal; nonlethal damage still hurts a lot) but this is about, if somebody receives enough nonlethal damage to take them out of a fight, does that trigger the resource-replenishment abilities that trigger from downing opponents.