| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
I'm pretty sure I'm right but I got voted 7 against 1 by my PCs so I folded like a rookie, but I wasn't sure so I usually side with the players until I know
So the question: If a creature has DR 10/ evil, does a attack from an evil creature bypass this reduction just because it's evil? I thought it had to be a specifically aligned evil weapon from spell, sla, enhancement, etc...
I do understand that any weapon or attack that is equivalent to +5 or greater overcomes the alignment DR.
If anyone could answer Y/N for the following:
*Touch attack from evil creature? (i believe any touch by-passes DR)
*Natural attack from evil creature E.G. bite/claw etc?
*weapon attack from an evil creature?
Thanks
Evil alignment alone is not sufficient. Evil subtype, however, is.
Creatures who have DR/evil also break DR/evil with their natural attacks, if I remember correctly?
Evil alignment alone is not sufficient. Evil subtype, however, is.
If Evil subtype was enough, why is the evil property listed specifically in the bodak's attacks?
In PRPG, the following creatures are of the Evil subtype and so their attacks bypass DR/evil:
- barghest
- bebelith
- cauchemar
- demons
- devils
- hell hound
- kyton
- nessian warhound
- night hag
- nightmare
- vargouille
- xill
- yeth hound
Some of these specifically note attacks as overcoming DR in the monster description, some don't, but they are all covered by the Creature Type rules for the Evil subtype:
This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the evil-aligned outer planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).
Creatures who have DR/evil also break DR/evil with their natural attacks, if I remember correctly?If this is true does that mean creatures with dr/magic count as magic when they attack?
In fact, this general rule is only correct for the natural attacks of creatures with DR/epic and DR/magic. It does not apply to other types of DR.
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Creatures who have DR/evil also break DR/evil with their natural attacks, if I remember correctly?
Nope. Having a particular DR does not let you overcome that same DR, except a creature with DR/magic [or epic] has its natural weapons (but not other weapons) count as magic [or epic].
Edit: ninja'd :)
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If Evil subtype was enough, why is the evil property listed specifically in the bodak's attacks?Evil alignment alone is not sufficient. Evil subtype, however, is.
Where is that listed anywhere in the Bodak's attacks? For that matter, where is the Bodak statted for PFRPG? The 3.5 Bodak doesn't even have the Evil subtype..
If Evil subtype was enough, why is the evil property listed specifically in the bodak's attacks?Evil alignment alone is not sufficient. Evil subtype, however, is.
Where is that listed anywhere in the Bodak's attacks? For that matter, where is the Bodak statted for PFRPG? The 3.5 Bodak doesn't even have the Evil subtype..
Gorbacz used "Bozzok" (a character from Order of the Stick) in his example, but Beek switch this to "bodak." The bodak is (a) not currently stated for PRPG to my knowledge, (3) not a creature of the Evil subtype, and (pi) doesn't have a natural attack that overcomes DR/evil.
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
Creatures who have DR/evil also break DR/evil with their natural attacks, if I remember correctly?
As Abraham quotes again above (I had quoted it previously), having an alignment subtype does allow you to overcome DR, with both weapons and natural attacks. My post "this general rule is only correct for the natural attacks of creatures with DR/epic and DR/magic" was intended to note the difference between these two and alignment, i.e. it doesn't work with weapons. On rereading that, it does probably look like I'm saying alignment subtypes don't overcome DR, but that is not my intention.
I don't understand that post (I mean, I agree with what you say, but why quote my post?) :)
I don't understand that post (I mean, I agree with what you say, but why quote my post?) :)
Meant to get Ice Titan instead of you...fixed it!
On a slightly related (?) subject... I want Damage Reduction ##/(something), meaning, it ONLY applies vs. the contents of the parens ().
So for instance, a creature could have DR 5/(bludgeoning) and that means that it effectively only has DR vs. bludgeoning weapons, ie, it reduces damage from bludgeoning attacks by 5 BUT NOT FROM ANY OTHER SORT OF ATTACK.
Some creatures should be better defended against <alignment> creatures and not vs. <not alignment> creatures. They exist to destroy/combat <alignment> creatures, so they should have an anti-<alignment> shield.
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
Wow Erian_7, I'm impressed! Thanks everybody for all the help.
On a slightly related (?) subject... I want Damage Reduction ##/(something), meaning, it ONLY applies vs. the contents of the parens ().
So for instance, a creature could have DR 5/(bludgeoning) and that means that it effectively only has DR vs. bludgeoning weapons, ie, it reduces damage from bludgeoning attacks by 5 BUT NOT FROM ANY OTHER SORT OF ATTACK.
That's called "DR 5/piercing and slashing." The DR applies to bludgeoning weapons, but not to piercing and slashing weapons.
Some creatures should be better defended against <alignment> creatures and not vs. <not alignment> creatures. They exist to destroy/combat <alignment> creatures, so they should have an anti-<alignment> shield.
That puts you in a weird situation where a super-good creature is most resistant to super-evil attacks, and therefore the best creature to kill a super-good creature is another super-good creature. Or, to use specific examples, if a solar had extra resistance specifically against (evil) attacks, it's easier for Solar B to kill Solar B than it is for a pit fiend or balor to kill Solar B (ignoring the CR differences, of course).
Or you end up in a situation where a planetar (which normally has DR 10/evil) would have DR 10/good, meaning that you're better off attacking a planetar with a holy weapon than an unholy weapon, which doesn't make sense.
Or you end up in a situation where a planetar (which normally has DR 10/evil) would have DR 10/good, meaning that you're better off attacking a planetar with a holy weapon than an unholy weapon, which doesn't make sense.
Actually on a certain level this does make sense to me. What does the planetar fight most often? Evil. So why would he be weak against his normal enemy? That's bad evolution so to speak -- he should be more resistant to the thing he battles the most and least resistant against something he never has to fight. It makes absolutely no sense to me that his DR is absolutely useless against the one type of opponent he is expected to fight.
This is a major problem for me when it comes to alignment DR. A devil should have more to fear from the treachery of it's kin than from an angel and an angel should feel secure fighting a devil -- at least more so than he should fighting one of his own kind.
In fact currently in most cases it is absolutely pointless for an outsider to have DR x/alignment since his most likely foes will ignore it most of the time anyways, and his own side (which generally has the same DR type) will also ignore it due to like DR penetration.
In the end when it comes to outsider vs outsider battles currently (supposedly more common than outsider vs mortal battles) DR is an evolutionary dead end for outsiders and should have never developed in the first place.
and his own side (which generally has the same DR type) will also ignore it due to like DR penetration.
There still is nothing in the rules stating that a creature with DR/x overcomes DR/x :)
and his own side (which generally has the same DR type) will also ignore it due to like DR penetration.
There still is nothing in the rules stating that a creature with DR/x overcomes DR/x :)
Except you are completely wrong and I posted said rules above.
To wit:
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well.
Try and at least read what has come up already in the thread.
Try and at least read what has come up already in the thread.
I have read that, and even posted that exact quote myself multiple times. It does NOT say what you think it says.
It says "A creature with an alignment subtype" overcomes DR matching the alignment.
NOT that a creature with a DR/alignment overcomes DR/that alignment.
So, a creature that is (evil) overcomes DR/evil. NOT a creature that has DR/evil overcomes DR/evil.
On the other hand, abraham, you're forgetting that devils don't have DR/evil. They have DR/good. Thus, their natural attacks do not overcome their own DR.
I still agree with your main point, though.
NOT that a creature with a DR/alignment overcomes DR/that alignment.
That isn't what he was saying. He was talking specifically about aligned outsiders such as angels and devils.
That isn't what he was saying. He was talking specifically about aligned outsiders such as angels and devils.NOT that a creature with a DR/alignment overcomes DR/that alignment.
How is that not what he is saying? He specifically replied to my post that DR/alignment doesn't overcome DR/alignment by saying I was completely wrong..
That isn't what he was saying. He was talking specifically about aligned outsiders such as angels and devils.NOT that a creature with a DR/alignment overcomes DR/that alignment.
How is that not what he is saying? He specifically replied to my post that DR/alignment doesn't overcome DR/alignment by saying I was completely wrong..
Uh, no, actually, he wasn't. He was responding to Sean Reynold's post.
Actually Are is correct I read the wrong of it. creatures with alignment DR do not automatically bypass their own type of DR as do creatures with DR x/magic or DR x/epic (which is specifically stated).
However that doesn't actually break my point of outsiders being stronger against their own kind than they are against their specific enemies.
For example:
A devil has DR x/good. A angel creature -- what a devil is normally supposed to fight -- is going to cut through that like it isn't there... specifically because it isn't for the angel, and this works the other way too: The devil is going to ignore the angel's DR x/evil since he is an evil subtype. However the devil fighting another devil is going to get to use his DR to full extent.
Basically put all the outsiders have developed DR that is absolutely useless to them against their intended enemies.
And that doesn't make any sense.
Don't think animal, think weapon. An airplane is very effective against most things, but a few weapons can hit it easier. The most effective of those is the airplane on the opposing side.
Or think armor, I am protected against everything except the thing that specifically is "designed" to kill me.
A devil should have more to fear from the treachery of it's kin than from an angel and an angel should feel secure fighting a devil -- at least more so than he should fighting one of his own kind.
I could not disagree with you more.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
|
Basically put all the outsiders have developed DR that is absolutely useless to them against their intended enemies.
And that doesn't make any sense.
I always looked at it the other way. They developed/evolved DR to try to stop all damage. The Angels (and truly Holy weapons) evolved or were developed specifically to damage them anyway.
In other words, the Devils didn't specifically develop DR/good - they just developed DR. Good weapons (and Good subtyped outsiders) specifically hurt Devils despite their DR. Think improved weaponry instead of flawed defense.
Basically put all the outsiders have developed DR that is absolutely useless to them against their intended enemies.
And that doesn't make any sense.
I always looked at it the other way. They developed/evolved DR to try to stop all damage. The Angels (and truly Holy weapons) evolved or were developed specifically to damage them anyway.
In other words, the Devils didn't specifically develop DR/good - they just developed DR. Good weapons (and Good subtyped outsiders) specifically hurt Devils despite their DR. Think improved weaponry instead of flawed defense.
Now this argument makes sense to me. It's not that you aren't in a tank -- it's the fact that while in a tank everyone is still firing heat rounds at you.
What I still want to know is if it's an Su ability or Ex. Pesky anti-magic fields in hell. :P
|
Or you can even look at it like this (building on carborundums post)-
An angel with DR 10/Evil is resistant to most all attacks from weapons. From good or neutral creatures and even most evil creatures. So all the rabble low-level stuff can't touch them. Only their true foes or those charged (with the right magical weapon) can really put the hurt on them.
Hordes of orcs firing arrows at a flying angel – and it takes little or no damage, even though the orcs in question are all evil. When the devil serving those orcs sees the angel from across the field then things change.
Maybe even a good reason to summon outsiders to fight other outsiders -if you don't have the champions to bring to the fight.
carborundum had the right presentation.
