So I just re-read the rules for VARIANT MULTICLASS Magus (press "Page Down" twice, I dunno how to link exactly here =P ).
A character who chooses magus as his secondary class gains the following secondary class features.
- Arcane Pool: At 3rd level, he gains the arcane pool class feature as a magus of his character level – 2.
- Magus Arcana: At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.
- Spellstrike: At 11th level, he gains the spellstrike class feature, but he can use it only with spells that are on the magus spell list, even though he can cast them using another class's spell slots.
- Improved Arcana: At 15th level, he gains one additional magus arcana.
- Greater Arcana: At 19th level, he gains one additional magus arcana.
This means that at 7th level I can take BROAD STUDY and basically be a Magus with a Full BAB & The Paladin spell-list.
Hell I could even take UNSANCTIONED KNOWLEDGE at 5th level and be a shocking-grasp scimitar crit-fisher like every other Magus out there! (And I can even get SPELL RECALL ... kinda)
Imagining a Smiting Magus?
I know I'm giving up a lot of feats (and Paladins are pretty feat-starved), but it seems pretty great. I'm not looking for the MOST powerful build, but this is viable right? I feel like I'm missing something, so anyone who wants to weigh in is most welcome.
Just to be thorough, here's some links:
MAGUS (Linked to Arcane Pool, scroll down for Spell Combat and Spellstrike)
EDIT: I think I just found what I missed - I don't actually get Spell-Combat with this combo do I? (And I don't get Spellstrike till level 11 either?) With that aside, do people think this is viable?
I haven't seen an official ruling on this, but to my understanding, you don't count as the Class you select with VMC. So the Broad Study feat requires you to be a 6th level Magus, but at 7th level, you're effectively a 7th level Paladin / 0 level Magus, but you have some Magus abilities. I've heard both sides of this argument, so I'd ask your GM.
Arcane Pool (using it for Weapon Enhancements) isn't particularly useful for a Paladin, since it gets the Divine Bond ability at 5th level. They're not EXACTLY the same, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to stack them.
Beyond that, VMC Magus is pretty good - it's one of the stronger VMC's out there.
I haven't seen an official ruling on this, but to my understanding, you don't count as the Class you select with VMC. So the Broad Study feat requires you to be a 6th level Magus, but at 7th level, you're effectively a 7th level Paladin / 0 level Magus, but you have some Magus abilities. I've heard both sides of this argument, so I'd ask your GM.
To answer that:
Magus Arcana: At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.
The real problem here is that Broad Study doesn't give you the Spell Combat or Spellstrike abilities, it just lets you use them with a second class if you already have them (which I totally missed when I started this thread).
Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class
Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.
If you had a GM willing to let you actually get Spell-Combat/strike out of this then I think it would be amazing, but I'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen =P
Arcane Pool (using it for Weapon Enhancements) isn't particularly useful for a Paladin, since it gets the Divine Bond ability at 5th level. They're not EXACTLY the same, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to stack them.
Depends what you want. If you want a Bonded-Mount and a Weapon-Bond it could be useful, or if you want to do what I was trying to do and use improvised weapons.
I haven't seen an official ruling on this, but to my understanding, you don't count as the Class you select with VMC. So the Broad Study feat requires you to be a 6th level Magus, but at 7th level, you're effectively a 7th level Paladin / 0 level Magus, but you have some Magus abilities. I've heard both sides of this argument, so I'd ask your GM.To answer that:
Magus Arcana: At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.The real problem here is that Broad Study doesn't give you the Spell Combat or Spellstrike abilities, it just lets you use them with a second class if you already have them (which I totally missed when I started this thread).
Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class
Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.If you had a GM willing to let you actually get Spell-Combat/strike out of this then I think it would be amazing, but I'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen =P
Arcane Pool (using it for Weapon Enhancements) isn't particularly useful for a Paladin, since it gets the Divine Bond ability at 5th level. They're not EXACTLY the same, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to stack them.Depends what you want. If you want a Bonded-Mount and a Weapon-Bond it could be useful, or if you want to do what I was trying to do and use improvised weapons.
Correct, if you took the bonded mount or an archetype that replaces Divine Bond, you'd be in good shape.
Magus Arcana: At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.
You bolded the wrong part; fixed ^_^
The Magus VMC says he treats his character level as his magus level for the purposes of selecting the arcana he gains at 7th level, meaning he counts as a 7th level Magus for the purposes of the arcana he selects. Broad Study is an Arcana, therefore he can take it, since he otherwise meets the pre-requisites.
Hell, he can even take Extra Arcana, since he has the Arcana class feature by 7th level, if he really wanted. But it's not really necessary, since he gets 2 extra ones towards the late game.
As far as stacking, I don't see why not. It's "viable," in that it can function, but it does have its issues.
The biggest one is lacking Spell Combat. You can't both Full Attack and cast your spells at the same time, and is crucial if you want to be effective in the late game. Another is that you aren't getting Spellstrike until 11th level; with both of these factors, your ability to be a Magus who Smites becomes extremely clunky, since you're either only attacking once, or you're full-attacking once every other round; either way, 4/9 spellcasters aren't really meant for damage dealing, they're more for utility and buffing. Did I also mention that you will have a CL penalty, even if you shore it up with Magical Knack, and you're still sacrificing potential spell damage for it?
There's also being somewhat MAD, since you need at least 13 (I'd recommend 14 for your Arcane Pool) Intelligence for both your Unsanctioned Knowledge, and so your Arcane Pool isn't dog$#!^. Tack on requiring high Strength, high Charisma, and a 12 Dexterity and Constitution, and you're looking at well over 20 point buy to maintain overall effectiveness.
Feats can also be a problem in lacking customization, though depending on your build, you'll be fine with a two-handed weapon and Power Attack as far as feats. Your class has strong features, so feats are more of a luxury to you instead of a necessity.
Swift Actions are also an issue. You can't use both Smite and, say, your Arcane Pool benefits in the same round. There's a magic item that can help this, and actually conforms to the VMC Magus playstyle, but it's only 1/day, so...
Lastly, a question of whether the effects of both your Arcane Pool and your Divine Bond would stack. I suppose you could take the Divine Bond alternative and simply utilize your Arcane Pool for enhancing your weapon, but you will have the reduced progression, and lacking powerful effects like the Holy property. The only real benefit is basically having your cake and eating it too.
Would I find this to be a cool character concept? Absolutely. A Divine+"Arcane" gish battler with powerful base class features and an interesting dynamic would be awesome to portray, either as an NPC, PC, or BBEG. But it is unfortunately rather clunky, and as such hurts its effectiveness extremely, meaning attempting to fulfill those roles (unless you're in a low-powered game) is almost impossible.
It's a lot like trying to make a Mystic Theurge work, and there's a reason it doesn't; characters who have access to the full Arcane and Divine spell lists (I mean 9th level, too,) are more overpowered than anything you could imagine, and as such they're just bad to play.
Could you use longer-duration touch spells to offset the lack of spell combat? i.e. Move, smite, cast turn one; wreck face turn 2-6.
The only one I know of is Chill Touch, and it's hardly a spell a Paladin would cast, both in terms of class morals, and optimization (1D6 negative energy damage and 1 strength damage per attack at best).
Then again, an Anti-Paladin with VMC Magus would be pretty rad too, for Evil campaigns, so on that front, it'd be interesting.
The biggest one is lacking Spell Combat. You can't both Full Attack and cast your spells at the same time, and is crucial if you want to be effective in the late game.
Yeah when I originally posted this I was thinking Broad Study gave you access to Spell Combat and Spellstrike. I knew I was missing something and that was it.
4/9 spellcasters aren't really meant for damage dealing, they're more for utility and buffing. Did I also mention that you will have a CL penalty, even if you shore it up with Magical Knack, and you're still sacrificing potential spell damage for it?
I wouldn't see this as a huge problem. Unsanctioned Knowledge can get you those damage spells you're missing. I also see the spell-damage loss as being more than mitigated by the smite-damage. Having a caster-level penalty for things like Spell Resistance would be a problem though.
There's also being somewhat MAD, since you need at least 13 (I'd recommend 14 for your Arcane Pool) Intelligence for both your Unsanctioned Knowledge, and so your Arcane Pool isn't dog$#!^. Tack on requiring high Strength, high Charisma, and a 12 Dexterity and Constitution, and you're looking at well over 20 point buy to maintain overall effectiveness.
A Human/Half Elf can do it (with alternate racial traits). Paladins are pretty MAD anyway, so adding 13 INT doesn't seem too tough. Remember Paladins can dump WIS and still be fine.
Feats can also be a problem in lacking customization, though depending on your build, you'll be fine with a two-handed weapon and Power Attack as far as feats. Your class has strong features, so feats are more of a luxury to you instead of a necessity.
Yeah this I see as the major drawback for this. Paladins are usually feat-starved. Halving their feats again is just ridiculous. A Human Paladin using MVC rules gets 6 feats by level 20 ... that's not many.
Swift Actions are also an issue. You can't use both Smite and, say, your Arcane Pool benefits in the same round.
Eh, I see this as more of a benefit than a Divine Bond. Sure you can't Smite+Enhance in the same round, but as a normal Paladin you have to give up your standard action to enhance your weapon. This is better than that.
Lastly, a question of whether the effects of both your Arcane Pool and your Divine Bond would stack. I suppose you could take the Divine Bond alternative and simply utilize your Arcane Pool for enhancing your weapon, but you will have the reduced progression, and lacking powerful effects like the Holy property. The only real benefit is basically having your cake and eating it too.
I don't see why they wouldn't stack? They both say you have to have at least a +1 before you add any special properties. They both say they stack with existing enhancements. Worst case scenario I'd say you add +X abilities with Divine Bond & special abilities with Arcan Bond & they should stack that way? You're right the progression would be reduced, but it starts earlier (level 3 instead of 5) so the reduction shouldn't be felt too hard.
Would I find this to be a cool character concept? Absolutely. A Divine+"Arcane" gish battler with powerful base class features and an interesting dynamic would be awesome to portray, either as an NPC, PC, or BBEG. But it is unfortunately rather clunky, and as such hurts its effectiveness extremely, meaning attempting to fulfill those roles (unless you're in a low-powered game) is almost impossible.
Yeah I really thought I had something with that Spell-Combat-Paladin. Oh well, maybe if I can convince a GM to let me have a Magus-1/Paladin-19 and use VMC Magus as well ...? No Spellstrike till level 11, but otherwise it's great!
Could you use longer-duration touch spells to offset the lack of spell combat? i.e. Move, smite, cast turn one; wreck face turn 2-6.The only one I know of is Chill Touch, and it's hardly a spell a Paladin would cast, both in terms of class morals, and optimization (1D6 negative energy damage and 1 strength damage per attack at best).
Then again, an Anti-Paladin with VMC Magus would be pretty rad too, for Evil campaigns, so on that front, it'd be interesting.
There's FROSTBITE.
Except it's not on the Paladin list & I'm pretty sure Unsanctioned Knowledge doesn't get you that one either =P
Oh well.
EDIT: It's a pity, I feel like a long duration non-lethal spell like Frostbite would be right up the Paladin alley.