Hey I’m looking to build a character that makes use of Improvised Weapons (Picking up rocks and chairs), and specializes in dirty tricks. Starting at 1st level aiming to max of 10th level ish, maybe 12th.
Kind of Mafia body guard, bouncer idea. Current Idea:
Traits: Dockside Brawler (Brass knuckles great for flavor), Surprise Weapon
Rogue 2 / Slayer 2 / Vigilante Rest (Rog1,Sly1,Sly2,Rog2,VigilX…)
or straight
Rogue 2 / Vigilante Rest
Deadly Surprise (or) Improved Catch Off-Guard, at first. Great Dirty Trick at 7th level.
Rogue (Make-shift Scrapper) for SA, Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything, and 2nd level talent Dirty Strike. If this version of Dirty Strike is used to blind, it can’t be removed for 1 round. Sneak attack again, add a different debuff.
Slayer (Bounty Hunter): (Slow) Dirty Strike, Full BAB, Boost to saves, study nets gains a “Meh”, Sneak Attack if I took another level. Not so sold on this one.
Vigilante (Avenger): A class I’d really like to try. It doesn’t hinder the build and adds the Expose Weakness Talent and slick Social Talents. Pick up Vigilante Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick, asap.
Maneuver Master Monk: I thought of the Master of Maneuvers 1 / Whatever x. Throw in Kata Master Arch and pick up Dastardly Trick Feat when I can. But I really dislike the requirement of needing a full-round action to pull off a dirty trick, and Vigilante's Mad Rush is a long way away. The other options up above are able to do it by 3rd level on Standard Sneak Attacks, which you can mix with charges, spring attacks, or just move and hit. No extra feats required. I am guaranteed at least one free SA with Deadly Surprise or Improved Catch Off-Guard.
Fighter Cad Archetype attempts to pull off everything I am looking for, but comes off a bit lack luster in my opinion. Not being able to pull anything off effectively until 7th level. If someone can make a case to change my mind by all means.
Am I trying to do too much with the Improvised / Trick mix? Do I need to add in some more damaging options? Opinions and suggestions please.
No 3rd party except Dreamscarred Press Psionics. Path of war stuff I'd have to make a case for.
No advice? I really appreciate some input for weal or woe.
Perhaps a rules question too: Can a vigilante take two different Rogue Talents through vigilante talent?
No advice? I really appreciate some input for weal or woe.
Perhaps a rules question too: Can a vigilante take two different Rogue Talents through vigilante talent?
No opinion on the build, but I can tell you that no they can't, because vigilante talents are never re-selectable unless they say so, and rogue talent doesn't say so. The fact that you'd be taking it with two different "parameters" doesn't matter. Similarly, a rogue can only take the Combat Trick talent once (gets them a combat feat).
Alright. I've actually been around the moon and back with different builds using Ranger, Monk, Cad, Magus, Full-Rogue, but I find the best option for what I want is still in the Rogue/Slayer mix.
Similar to my first post, but laid out more clearly.
()Bonus Feat, []Class Ability
-> Retrain through Vigilante feature
Rogue: Makeshift Scrapper
Slayer: Bounty Hunter & Cleaner
Vigilante: Gunmaster
Str>Dex=Con=Int>Cha>Wis
Focus Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Sense Motive, UMD
0 Human: Traits: Dockside Brawler, Surprise Weapon, Giant Ancestry (+1 CMB, Replace Skilled)
1 Rogue: (Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything), Dirty Fighting, (Improved Catch Off-Guard)
2-3 Slyer: [Sneaky Dirty Trick], Weapon Focus: Improvised Weapon
4 Vigil: [Social: Renown, Specialization: Stalker]
5 Vigil: (Imp Trick), Brilliant Planner
6 Vigil: [Social: Loyal Aid]
7 Vigil: [Talent: Expose Weakness], Vital Strike->Disposable Weapon
8 Vigil: [Social: Many Guises]
9 Vigil: [Talent: Vital Punishment/Or Not?], Cloak and Dagger Style
10 Vigil: [Social: Safe House]
Later Vigil: (Superior Dirty Trick: Entangle), Greater Trick
Notes:
Hidden Strike: is not Sneak Attack so add damage still when preforming Sneaking Dirty Trick. I actually like this over the +1 bonus per SA dice I would normally gain with full rogue or slayer.
Brilliant Planner: meta choice for my group. Will allow me more creativity with Dirty Trick, certainly not RAW. Also 1/day scroll or potion of my choice, yes please.
Rogue's Underhanded Trick: Improved Dirty Trick plus an immovable status effect. Yes.
Social Talents: May not be taken in that exact order.
Startling Appearance: Is garbage, and with Improved Catch Off-Guard it is redundant and not-as-good garbage. Wish I could swap it without losing a ton of things.
Weapon Enchants: No reliable weapon enchants, due to the nature of picking up whatever is around.
Weapon Focus: Is there another ability or feat out there which "Counts" as weapon focus? I'm never a fan of this feat.
I don't think "improvised weapon" is a legal setting for Weapon Focus. What do you want it for? If there's something in your build that has it as a prereq I'm missing it.
I don't think "improvised weapon" is a legal setting for Weapon Focus. What do you want it for? If there's something in your build that has it as a prereq I'm missing it.
I think you even told me this same thing in another thread, shows how well it stuck. Cloak and Dagger Style needs it. Anyway not much of an issue, I'll just change it to something else. I'd rather replace it altogether, it's an unwanted feat tax.
Benefit(s): Choose one light melee weapon. While using this style, whenever you use the attack action to attack an opponent during a surprise round with your chosen weapon, you can attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver check against that opponent as a free action. Additionally, if an adjacent target attempts to remove a condition that you inflicted upon it with the dirty trick combat maneuver, it provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
The second ability of the feat is independant of the first, correct? Then you could take weapon focus in a weapon you won't actually use since the first ability granted by the feat is situational and reduntant with your slayer ability.
As for getting weapon focus, you could either stuff a Opalescent White Pyramid (Ioun Stone) in a wayfinder for a total cost of 10,500 gp. Or get an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Training enchantment for 4,000 gp.
And you'd definitely want to pick up combat reflexes with cloak and dagger.
Bolded parts are changes.
-> Retrain through Vigilante feature
Rogue: Makeshift Scrapper
Slayer: Bounty Hunter & Cleaner
Vigilante: Gunmaster
Focus Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Sense Motive, UMD
0 Human: Traits: Dockside Brawler, Surprise Weapon, Giant Ancestry (+1 CMB, Replace Skilled)
1 Rogue: (Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything), Dirty Fighting, (Improved Catch Off-Guard)
2-3 Slayer: [Sneaky Dirty Trick], Combat Reflexes(1)
4 Vigil: [Social: Renown, Specialization: Stalker]
5 Vigil: [Talent: Leave an Opening](2), Brilliant Planner
6 Vigil: [Social: Social Grace](3)
7 Vigil: [Talent: Expose Weakness], Imp Trick(4)
8 Vigil: [Social: Many Guises]
9 Vigil: [Talent: Vital Punishment], Cloak and Dagger Style*
10 Vigil: [Social: Safe House]
Later Vigil: (Superior Dirty Trick: Entangle), Greater Trick
(1)Instead of Weapon Focus: Improvised Weapon
Combat Reflexes is essential to both Cloak&Dagger and Leave an Opening. You'd want a Dex mod of atleast +2 so you can benefit from them both in the same round. (Or Leave an Opening against multiple enemies)
(2)Instead of Vigil Talent:Imp Trick.
Leave an Opening is crazy good. Any stalker vigilante should take it. And since you qualify for Imp Trick you can take it as a normal feat anyway.
(3)Instead of [Loyal Aid].
+4 to any mental skill (except Per/UMD), and another every fourth level after the first places Social Grace in the top three social talents.
(4)Instead of Vital Strike->Disposable Weapon
While the ability to auto-confirm is nice, you don't have any ability depending on your crits and a x2 multiplier.
*Just buy Weapon Focus.
At level 9 you should have enough cash for that. If not, then reconsider how valuable Brilliant Planner is for this build.
(Too late to edit, but I realized that I've misunderstood Leave an Opening. Thought it also triggered on the lesser version of Hidden Strike, but I suppose it doesn't.)
(2)Instead of Vigil Talent:Imp Trick.
Leave an Opening is crazy good. Any stalker vigilante should take it. And since you qualify for Imp Trick you can take it as a normal feat anyway.
Either just go with the Improved Dirty Trick talent to be able to take Weapon Focus, or take Cunning Feint so you'll be able to get in Sneak Attack in those cases you meet someone with Uncanny Dodge.
(1)Instead of Weapon Focus: Improvised Weapon
(2)Instead of Vigil Talent:Imp Trick.
(3)Instead of [Loyal Aid].
(4)Instead of Vital Strike->Disposable Weapon
*Just buy Weapon Focus.
1+) I’ll take your suggestion, and I’ll use it to Smash(!) my Dirty Trick lego house. This is what I get for focusing on Avenger Specialty too much. ‘Leave an Opening’ is SO much better than Clock and Dagger. It functions more-or-less for the same propose, with Imp Catch off guard I’ll still more than likely be Sneak Striking! And for the few that actually have Uncanny Dodge. I’ll just use a Combat Maneuver like a normal person, no need to burn another feat. That said I have feats to spare now.
Drop Weapon Focus- It’s no longer needed, Drop Vital Strike it isn’t spectacular with Sneak Attack/Hidden Strike, Drop Cloak & Dagger- It’s not worth the bother with a better option now available. Even Dirty Fighting has the chopping knife hovering about its’ head, but that +4 to CMB is just too nice to give up.2) Sorry more clear: Gaining Dirty Trick through: Vigilante Talent: Gain Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick. Which if taken this way, auto qualifies you for Great Trick, and your Blind Condition is unremovable for 1 round. This was pretty much 80% why I’m taking Stalker over the much better BAB Avenger Specialty.
Value Brilliant Planner: Brilliant Planner by 7th level alone is any 3rd level scroll (ANY!) once a day. Any 2nd level potion, and whole smack of low level magic items. Including Feather Tokens for arrows. At higher levels it’s a WAND of cure light Per. Day. The limitation on items is only by weight and type of community/town/city. Services are mundane only, but item wise the sky is the limit. Combine with Loyal Aid’s 1/day and you can have your people refilling your Planning Fund and delivering new items while you are off adventuring. We’ll see how fast my DM will kibosh that idea.
3) Social Grace It’s nice but not being able to apply it to Perception or UMD, doesn’t make it great. If I was taking it I’d replace Safe-house first. Was there anything specific to use for this you had in mind? Other than bumping much needed Bluff and maybe something else it’s just kinda nice. Maybe I'm missing something.
4)Disposable Weapon. At first I was “Yep, you’re right. This adds nothing to the build”, now in the wake of ‘Leave an Opening’ I have spare feat slots. At least two, any suggestions? Do you still suggestion Combat Reflexes with the removable of Cloak and Dagger?
And like you suggested, I can still just buy weapon focus. Which I guess I'm still going to do.
1+) I’ll take your suggestion, and I’ll use it to Smash(!) my Dirty Trick lego house. This is what I get for focusing on Avenger Specialty too much. ‘Leave an Opening’ is SO much better than Clock and Dagger. It functions more-or-less for the same propose, with Imp Catch off guard I’ll still more than likely be Sneak Striking! And for the few that actually have Uncanny Dodge. I’ll just use a Combat Maneuver like a normal person, no need to burn another feat. That said I have feats to spare now.
Drop Weapon Focus- It’s no longer needed, Drop Vital Strike it isn’t spectacular with Sneak Attack/Hidden Strike, Drop Cloak & Dagger- It’s not worth the bother with a better option now available. Even Dirty Fighting has the chopping knife hovering about its’ head, but that +4 to CMB is just too nice to give up.
To be fair, it's actually only +2 (since you'll need to be flanking and that's already +2). If you don't plan on picking up any feat which would require Dirty Fighting then you could take some other feat.
===========================
2) Value Brilliant Planner: Brilliant Planner by 7th level alone is any 3rd level scroll (ANY!) once a day. Any 2nd level potion, and whole smack of low level magic items. Including Feather Tokens for arrows. At higher levels it’s a WAND of cure light Per. Day. The limitation on items is only by weight and type of community/town/city. Services are mundane only, but item wise the sky is the limit. Combine with Loyal Aid’s 1/day and you can have your people refilling your Planning Fund and delivering new items while you are off adventuring. We’ll see how fast my DM will kibosh that idea.
I can see the worth of Brilliant Planner, keep it!
But the worth of Loyal Aid is still very questionable. What can your allies actually do if you're not in your one area of renown? They can perform one "minor task", which "can never involve combat or danger".
This means they probably couldn't meet up with you when you're adventuring since travelling by itself is dangerous. And every small thing they actually can do is just as easily accomplished with either hiring a messenger for a couple of silver, or just by using diplomacy on someone on the street.
===========================
3)Social Grace It’s nice but not being able to apply it to Perception or UMD, doesn’t make it great. If I was taking it I’d replace Safe-house first. Was there anything specific to use for this you had in mind? Other than bumping much needed Bluff and maybe something else it’s just kinda nice. Maybe I'm missing something.
Nope, it's just to buff your social skills like bluff/diplomacy/sense motive. The problem is that most social talents aren't very good, so in comparison with Loyal Aid it is definitely the better choice.
And considering that Improved Catch Off-Guard is depending on Bluff you should really try to get that as high as possible.Instead of Safe House, I would take Quick Change. The ability to run behind a corner and then appear as your "Mundane" persona six seconds later would allow you to shake off almost anyone.
===========================
4)Disposable Weapon. At first I was “Yep, you’re right. This adds nothing to the build”, now in the wake of ‘Leave an Opening’ I have spare feat slots. At least two, any suggestions? Do you still suggestion Combat Reflexes with the removable of Cloak and Dagger?
And like you suggested, I can still just buy weapon focus. Which I guess I'm still going to do.
Well, you could take Extra Slayer Talent and pick up TWF without meeting the dex prerequisite. (I think? The Slayer archetype switches out the second level Slayer Talent, but I'm pretty sure you've gained the "Slayer Talent Class Feature")
Or pick up some defensive feats like Toughness/Iron Will.
Combat Reflexes would be useful if you're getting off Leave an Opening on several enemies in a round (most likely two), or if you've forced an archer into close combat. But then you'd likely need Step Up aswell.
But since you now have so many feats free, you could potentially go DEX instead of STR and ease up on your point buy. Since you don't have Heavy Armor proficiency, you would probably earn some AC (not to mention Reflex and Inititative).
===========================
*Campaign Trait. Take Bred for War (+1 to CMB) if not playing Skull & Shackles
1 Rogue: (Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything), Toughness, (Improved Catch Off-Guard)
2-3 Slayer: [Sneaky Dirty Trick], Extra Slayer Talent: TWF
4 Vigil: [Social: Renown, Specialization: Stalker]
5 Vigil: [Talent: Underhanded Trick], Brilliant Planner
6 Vigil: [Social: Social Grace]
7 Vigil: [Talent: Leave an Opening], Save Boost
8 Vigil: [Social: Many Guises]
9 Vigil: [Talent: Expose Weakness], Greater Dirty Trick
10 Vigil: [Social: Quick Change]
*Campaign Trait. Take Bred for War (+1 to CMB) if not playing Skull & Shackles
1 UnRogue: (Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything, Weapon Finesse), TWF, (Improved Catch Off-Guard)
2-3 Slayer: [Sneaky Dirty Trick], Agile Maneuvers
4 Vigil: [Social: Renown, Specialization: Stalker]
5 Vigil: [Talent: Underhanded Trick], Brilliant Planner
6 Vigil: [Social: Social Grace]
7 Vigil: [Talent: Leave an Opening], Step Up/Save Boost
8 Vigil: [Social: Many Guises]
9 Vigil: [Talent: Expose Weakness], Greater Dirty Trick
10 Vigil: [Social: Quick Change]
Prob best to buy Combat Reflexes with Step Up.
TRAINING
PRICE +1 bonus CL 3rd
AURA faint transmutation
Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled warriors, a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. The feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the weapon. That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets its prerequisites. Once chosen, the feat stored in the weapon cannot be changed.CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST +1 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic weapon, creator must have the chosen combat feat and its prerequisites
So Gauntlet +1, Training. 8,000 gp for a combat feat.
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
As long as you wear the amulet and have a gauntlet equipped on your hand, you'd benefit from chosen feat. Since the gauntlet is considered an Unarmed Attack.
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
4,002 gp and the Neck Slot.
Amulet of Might Fists affect the gauntlet.
The gauntlet is "drawn and in hand".
Training enchantment would trigger.
Enjoy your combat feat.