I'm curious about the Hallucination line of spells (specifically starting with Auditory Hallucation and the others that build off it, not Mad Hallucation).
For the record, here's the spell description:
Auditory Hallucination
School illusion (phantasm) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, magus 1, medium 1, mesmerist 1, occultist 1, psychic 1, sorcerer/wizard 1CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components SEFFECT
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration concentration
Saving Throw Will disbelief; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You cause the targets to believe they hear any sound you imagine.
The sound can include intelligible speech. Instead of precisely imagining a sound, you can identify a sound the subjects know and they imagine it doing what you describe as you cast the spell. For example, you could cast this spell on orc warriors and have them imagine the sound of their chieftain calling for help, even if you've never heard their chieftain and even if the chieftain speaks in a language you don't understand. All targets hear the same hallucination. You can change the sound as part of concentrating on the spell.
Firstly, when do you save? It says "Will disbelief", but is that when the spell is first cast upon you, when the first hallucination shows up, when interacted with like other Illusion spells, or when the target starts to think that maybe he didn't just hear an invisible charging bull coming towards him and declares that he's disbelieving?
The section on magic says:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Normally spells say "Will disbelief (if interacted with)" for illusions that you can...uh...interact with (Silent Image, for example). Other spells that say "Will disbelief" (such as Phantasmal Killer) have an immediate and obvious result that can be disbelieved (and don't require any careful observation or interaction, it says so in the spell description when you roll to save). The Hallucination line of spells doesn't have anything obvious in the description, so I'm unsure when it's required.
Second question. If the first save (whenever that is) fails, do they ever get a chance to save again, or are they doomed to hear the voices telling them to do things for the rest of their lives (or at least for as long as the caster maintains concentration)?
Third question. Is there a range that the targets must be in to maintain the illusion? If the caster is willing to spend their action for a long period of time to concentrate on the spell (or has some way to prolong it without spending actions, such as with an Illusion school familiar and a clockwork improved familiar who doesn't need to sleep...) does the target have to stay within the range of the original casting for it to be maintained, or can they travel the globe, plane shift, etc. and continue to be under the spells effects?
I did a search before posting but it's possible I missed something (it's happened before...) so if that's the case, please point me in the right direction. Thanks!!!
I would go with the rules in Ultimate Intrigue for interacting with illusions to earn a disbelief save. To generalize and summarize, if you expend an action interacting with a hallucination you get a save, but not when it is first cast. If someone tells you it's not real ("why are you talking to no one?") you get a bonus save with the +4(?) bonus.
The hallucination spells are a little more direct (see: mind-affecting tag), so it's not an interaction issue. The save is when it's cast.
I would go with the rules in Ultimate Intrigue for interacting with illusions to earn a disbelief save. To generalize and summarize, if you expend an action interacting with a hallucination you get a save, but not when it is first cast. If someone tells you it's not real ("why are you talking to no one?") you get a bonus save with the +4(?) bonus.
Ah, there are rules in the source... I guess that's what I get for relying on website resources :P
I'll have to take a look at that later. Thanks!
EDIT: Found this
Phantasms directly assail a creature's mind, so the creature automatically and immediately receives a saving throw to disbelieve a phantasm. Figments and glamers, however, have the more difficult-to-adjudicate rule that creatures receive a saving throw to disbelieve only if they “interact” with the illusion.
Okay, so that answers the first part (when a save is required). I assume that interaction with it again allows another save...?
But what does it mean to interact with an illusion? It can't just mean looking at the illusion, as otherwise there would be no need to make the distinction, but drawing the line can be a bit tricky. Fortunately, the rules can help to define that difference. A creature that spends a move action to carefully study an illusion receives a Will saving throw to disbelieve that illusion, so that is a good benchmark from which to work.
Using that as a basis, interacting generally means spending a move action, standard action, or greater on a character's part. For example, if there were a major image of an ogre, a character who tried to attack the ogre would receive a saving throw to disbelieve, as would a character who spent 1 minute attempting a Diplomacy check on the ogre. A character who just traded witty banter with the ogre as a free action would not, nor would a character who simply cast spells on herself or her allies and never directly confronted the illusory ogre. For a glamer, interacting generally works the same as for a figment, except that the interaction must be limited to something the glamer affects. For instance, grabbing a creature's ear would be an interaction for a human using disguise self to appear as an elf, but not for someone using a glamer to change his hair color. Similarly, visually studying someone would not grant a save against a glamer that purely changed her voice.
So I cast Auditory Hallucination on a guard but I don't have it say anything. He gets a save immediately. Let's assume he fails.
When my team is ready to sneak into the place he's guarding, I have him hear his commander yell for his help. He doesn't get another save unless he decides to second guess that it was his commander...? "I thought Commander Bob was off today, did I really hear him?" that kind of thing?
Still curious about the third question, tho... the range the caster and target need to be after the target is initially effected.
The hallucination spells are a little more direct (see: mind-affecting tag), so it's not an interaction issue. The save is when it's cast.
Can you point to where that rule is? I don't see anything in d20pfsrd about the mind-affecting tag dictating when the save is required. Typically, that's under the Save section (or sometimes in the text of the spell), ya?
Doesn't the "Disbelief" part mean that the target has to attempt to disbelieve it to get a save (meaning it could be immediately upon the spell being cast upon them if there's something to disbelieve, or several rounds later when the caster decides it would be most advantageous to have the target hear something that really isn't there)?
The hallucination spells are a little more direct (see: mind-affecting tag), so it's not an interaction issue. The save is when it's cast.Can you point to where that rule is? I don't see anything in d20pfsrd about the mind-affecting tag dictating when the save is required. Typically, that's under the Save section (or sometimes in the text of the spell), ya?
Doesn't the "Disbelief" part mean that the target has to attempt to disbelieve it to get a save (meaning it could be immediately upon the spell being cast upon them if there's something to disbelieve, or several rounds later when the caster decides it would be most advantageous to have the target hear something that really isn't there)?
I'm just using what's written in the spell as compared to the image line of spells. It just says a will save to disbelieve, without the "on interaction" clause It has targets rather than creating something that's externally observed. From that, I'd conclude that they get a save to keep you from sticking a phantasm in their mind, and failing that means it's going to seem real to them. Now, it won't rule magic shenanigans out, but it makes sense from a balance perspective. There's always a save (unlike the image spells), but it holds up better under inspection.
Audiovisual Hallucination makes this clearer- even when struck, there's no mention of a save. If you don't make it react appropriately and the instructions don't cover that, it simply disappears.
Finally, Complex Hallucination includes tactile elements, making it clear that at that level, people can even "touch" it.
I interpreted it to mean there is an immediate save as the spell is cast.
Normally, the save line says whether or not there is a save, what kind of save it is, then is says what happens.
For example: Will negates, Ref half, Fortitude partial.
Will disbelieve, means that you make a Will save, and if you succeed, you don't believe the hallucination to be real.
My 2cp.
I interpreted it to mean there is an immediate save as the spell is cast.
Normally, the save line says whether or not there is a save, what kind of save it is, then is says what happens.
For example: Will negates, Ref half, Fortitude partial.
Will disbelieve, means that you make a Will save, and if you succeed, you don't believe the hallucination to be real.
My 2cp.
Ya, I found the section on Phantasms (from Ultimate Intrigue) that I posted above that requires a save immediately.
After that initial save, they apparently don't get another save.
QuidEst pointed out that striking the image makes it disappear, but it doesn't mention a save (so other hallucinations brought on by the spell, say a horde of orges coupled with the sounds of an ogre shaman casting a spell are unaffected... only the ogre you hit disappears).
_Maybe_ someone could, at that point, force a save by saying "this isn't real" and spending a move action:
A creature that spends a move action to carefully study an illusion receives a Will saving throw to disbelieve that illusion, so that is a good benchmark from which to work.
What I'm still curious about is, in the event that the target has at least failed the initial save, how far can they be and still be effected by it, assuming the caster maintains the spell?
Insofar as I know, there are no more chances after the initial save for the hallucination line of spells.
1st of all: Please forgive this threadromancy but, at least it is somewhat thematically appropriate given the time of year? :)
2nd: I have some real issues with the idea that a sustained illusion only grants an initial save to disbelieve. If a party of PCs starts fighting a complex hallucination of say, a balor, there is going to be some kind of break down in play when the wizard can't target it with magic missle or the paladin can't smite it or any other kind of incongruity you can come up with.
Eventually, someone will catch on that what they are experiencing does not fit and there should be a way to cover that.