Martial save-based abilities?

[My Self]

What if all full BAB martials + Rogues had save-based abilities? Once per round, a martial could substitute one of these for an attack. Perhaps there would be some sort of uses/day cap or 1 use per minute or 1 per 1d4 rounds. I'm not entirely sure how the DC should be calculated, but hopefully it should keep pace with enemy saves. (10+1/2 BAB+Weapon Focus+STR or DEX?)

So about the possible abilities:

(New) Cleave
Range: 5, 10, or 15 ft.
Area: 15-foot line, 10 foot cone, or 5-foot radius spread centered on you
Saving Throw: Reflex half
You swing in a wide arc, striking everything within reach. All other creatures in the area of effect take your weapon damage on a failed save.

Special: True Strike adds +5 to DC instead of +20 to hit.

Clarification: First line "within reach" is just fluff. Please help me come up with a better filler word.

Possible improvements: Increased range improvements? Attached trip effects at higher levels? Larger area with larger people/weapons? Perhaps just range of reach x 3? Perhaps Great Cleave lets you do this twice a round? Three times?

(New) Vital Strike
Range: 30 ft.
Target: One creature
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
You strike hard and true, aiming to grievously wound your enemy. Make an attack roll. A hit forces your enemy to make a save in addition to dealing the normal weapon damage. A target who fails their saving throw treats the attack as a critical threat, regardless of the actual roll. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect. Undead and constructs must make Fortitude saves.

Special: A character with Sneak Attack may add their Sneak Attack damage if the target fails their save and is not immune to precision damage.

Clarification: The attack must be a valid attack against a target within 30 feet.

Possible improvements: Increased range for archer-types? Add bleeding and staggering as higher-level upgrade options, perhaps?

Expanding cluster of problem:

(New) Spellbreaker
Range: 15 ft.
Target: One creature
Saving Throw: Will negates
With a careful eye and steady hand, you pierce through magical protections to strike the target underneath. Select a creature. If the creature is the subject of a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability, they must make a save. If they fail their save, you may apply 1 + 1 per 4 levels of the following effects to your next attack within one round against the same target.

Reduce DR by 5
Reduce energy resistance by 5
Reduce AC by 2
Reduce save bonus by 2
Reduce number of effective Mirror Images by 1
Reduce number of extra d20s rolled by 1
Reduce 100%-51% miss chance to 50%
Reduce 50%-21% miss chance to 20%
Reduce 20%-1% miss chance to 0%

You may select an option multiple times, but the minimum it can reduce something to is 0, and it only affects effects granted to the target by a spell (including potions, scrolls, wands, staves, etc.), spell-like ability, or supernatural ability, but not by a permanent (24 hour+) function of a magic item. For example, if a Fighter successfully uses this on a Wizard that has cast Blur and is hiding behind a rock, the Fighter can downgrade the 20% concealment from Blur to 0%, but cannot downgrade the 20% concealment from the rock to 0%.

Special: You may substitute the attack with another ability that uses an attack roll, such as a combat maneuver that can be performed in place of an attack or Spell Sunder. This ability does not let you strike ethereal creatures and does not remove the 20% Blink miss chance for being ethereal.

Clarifications: Pinpointed invisible creatures can be targeted normally, but unpinpointed invisible creatures can only be targeted if the square they occupy is guessed correctly. Protection from Evil and Wind Wall count as 100% miss chance. Extra d20s rolled refer to spells or abilities that force the attacker to roll twice and take the lower result- to qualify, the effect must come from or be cast on the defender, not the attacker.

Possible improvements: Make things simpler? Remove options?

Please tell me if this would be a really bad idea, or, if it's not, how to improve it so it could possibly be balanced-ish without needing to be taken as feats or feat chains.

[Cyrad]

The question is...why?

Also, both of those feats are kind of broken and don't make a whole lot of sense.

[J4RH34D]

Actions to use? Both seem like they would be full round type actions. Cleave is just insane for grouped up enemies. Maybe cap it at 1 creature per iterative attack you normally have?

[Vidmaster7]

I would probably base the cleaves range and attack pattern on the weapon type so spear for the line axe for the spread and cone.

[Milo v3]

http://paizo.com/products/btpy99n5?Path-of-War

[My Self]

Cyrad wrote:

The question is...why?

Also, both of those feats are kind of broken and don't make a whole lot of sense.

Well, they're not exactly supposed to be feats or feat-equivalent, just options that you get as a martial class at 5th level+ or so.

What specifically is broken, and what doesn't make sense?

The idea behind Cleave is a bit like regular Cleave.

Vital Strike is meant to be a more useful Vital Strike. It is meant to specifically buff Rogues and characters with high crit multipliers but low crit ranges. With it, you're supposed to attack an enemy in weapon range who is also within 30 feet.

Spellbreaker is... a mess. But ideally, you're supposed to be able to study an opponent and reduce the effect of magical protection, and only magical protection.

J4RH34D wrote:

Actions to use? Both seem like they would be full round type actions. Cleave is just insane for grouped up enemies. Maybe cap it at 1 creature per iterative attack you normally have?

Once per round, in place of an attack. So standard action or part of a full attack. Or maybe instead of 1 per round, it could be 1 per 1d4 rounds, 1 per minute, or BAB+(STR? DEX? CON?) per day.

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I would probably base the cleaves range and attack pattern on the weapon type so spear for the line axe for the spread and cone.

That makes a lot of sense.

[Johnnycat93]

Seconding Path of War.

[Headfirst]

Isn't this exactly the kind of thing 4th Edition D&D tried to do that everyone hated?

[jasin]

Headfirst wrote:

Isn't this exactly the kind of thing 4th Edition D&D tried to do that everyone hated?

No, it's the kind of thing that all the 4th Edition fans loved.

[Vidmaster7]

jasin wrote:

Headfirst wrote:

Isn't this exactly the kind of thing 4th Edition D&D tried to do that everyone hated?

No, it's the kind of thing that all the 4th Edition fans loved.

Out of curiosity then what did make you leave 4th? ( I assume you posting on paizo board means you player pathfinder if i'm wrong let me know)

[Devilkiller]

Some martials can already gain saving throw based abilities. One game I run has a greatsword Paladin who threatens on 17-20 and has some critical hit feats. A couple of my own PCs have Terrifying Howl, which can potentially affect multiple foes with a pretty high DC fear effect.

If you really want to develop area effect attacks maybe you could consider having them do half damage on a failed saving throw and no damage on a successful one. It would probably be good enough for wiping out waves of mooks without replacing regular attacks against tougher foes.

[Cyrad]

Headfirst wrote:

Isn't this exactly the kind of thing 4th Edition D&D tried to do that everyone hated?

No. 4th Edition got rid of saving throws entirely with exception to on-going effects that force you to roll a natural 10 or higher each round to end them. Instead of saving throws, you essentially have four Armor Class scores and all offensive effects have attack rolls. So casting a fireball requires the wizard to make an attack roll against the Reflex of each creature in the area.

[Headfirst]

Cyrad wrote:

Headfirst wrote:

Isn't this exactly the kind of thing 4th Edition D&D tried to do that everyone hated?

No. 4th Edition got rid of saving throws entirely with exception to on-going effects that force you to roll a natural 10 or higher each round to end them. Instead of saving throws, you essentially have four Armor Class scores and all offensive effects have attack rolls. So casting a fireball requires the wizard to make an attack roll against the Reflex of each creature in the area.

Heh, alright, man. :)

[Ciaran Barnes]

I don't know about this specific way you have implemented things, but why not use combat maneuver checks instead of saving throws?