|
Will we be seeing something like this, hopefully soon? I get that Pathfinder Unchained came out with a bunch of new options, but they're not the same as designing your own stuff for the Pathfinder RPG. It would give many people a great way to not have to wait for a specific book that they would want. It would also allow many players and third parties to design new options that would've previously considered impractical because of the power level and give a guide to creating a class or item in a balanced and easy-to-understand fashion. I really do think that creating a book like this would be a huge profit to everyone and sales would go through the roof. If this does come to fruition, I'd also suggest including previous custom (fill in the blank) builders from other books, so it could truly be an Ultimate Creation Guide.
Thanks for your time,
-Theliah Strongarm
As long as it starts with the words..
Fiat lux
But unfortunately creativity is not something that can be taught. The tools that you're asking for are generally in print in the forms of Ultimate Campaign, Advanced Race Guide, the Gamemastery Guide, and Pathfinder Unchained! Between them you've got materials for designing races, classes, and magic items, as well as building campaign settings.
What more are you looking for?
Something that deconstructed monster stats/creation would be neat (no idea if this is what OP is getting at).
I think a monster creation book would be awesome. Things like rules for advancing monsters (like class tables for creature types), more templates (and or putting them all in one place) and how to determine monstrous ability scores.
|
|
I think something with a class builder, equipment builder, skill builder, etc.
I'm looking for a compendium of charts to create your own... well, whatever, really. Just you know, for now, "the basics" that have yet to be covered: Skills, Equipment, and Classes. Those three I've heard a lot of clamour for on these forums, but Paizo keeps on coming out with books completely unrelated to the topic of custom creation. (For the most part, excluding the Race Builder, Magic Item Generator, and Campaign Setting guides.)
Drahliana Moonrunner, where did you hear in those 4 books that they contain rules on building your own classes? I have all four of those that you mentioned and have not seen anything that give guidelines to create your own classes.
Firewarrior44, I think they're doing that with the Random Encounters Codex coming out next year.
et lux erat
The Advanced Class guide had guidelines for building classes.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Advanced Class guide had guidelines for building classes.
But not concrete guidelines like the Advanced Race Guide has. There's no way of telling if a class is OP or not. And what about alternate classes? there's no specific rule guidelines.
|
The Advanced Class guide had guidelines for building classes.But not concrete guidelines like the Advanced Race Guide has. There's no way of telling if a class is OP or not.
The Advanced Race guidelines are terrible, though. So this may be for the best.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
you sure? i've had no qualms with it
Here are two versions of the stats for a Gnoll race:
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha
Which do you think is more expensive? Hint: It's the first one. The objectively worse one, which is 9 RP to the 5 RP of the second one.
And it's not like that's just theorycrafting. A gnoll was literally the first thing I tried to make in that system.
Another example, is that humans can trade being a 9 RP race for being a 2 RP race with the 'Dual Talent' alternate racial trait...and that's a good Alternate Racial Trait that people actually like and take.
And really, those are just an example of the endemic problem with the system, which is that the prices and the value of the things they buy are not equivalent. Or even close to equivalent.
|
|
you sure? i've had no qualms with itHere are two versions of the stats for a Gnoll race:
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 ChaWhich do you think is more expensive? Hint: It's the first one. The objectively worse one, which is 9 RP to the 5 RP of the second one.
And it's not like that's just theorycrafting. A gnoll was literally the first thing I tried to make in that system.
Another example, is that humans can trade being a 9 RP race for being a 2 RP race with the 'Dual Talent' alternate racial trait...and that's a good Alternate Racial Trait that people actually like and take.
And really, those are just an example of the endemic problem with the system, which is that the prices and the value of the things they buy are not equivalent. Or even close to equivalent.
OK, but I would like to see a specific rules system designated to creating your own whatever-you-like, such as weapons, armor, equipment, skills, feats, (big 'un for me), your own materials similar to mithral and cold iron, and rules for alternate classes. Just to name a few.
You see my problem?There are so many overlooked opportunities that Paizo has missed.
you sure? i've had no qualms with itHere are two versions of the stats for a Gnoll race:
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 ChaWhich do you think is more expensive? Hint: It's the first one. The objectively worse one, which is 9 RP to the 5 RP of the second one.
And it's not like that's just theorycrafting. A gnoll was literally the first thing I tried to make in that system.
Another example, is that humans can trade being a 9 RP race for being a 2 RP race with the 'Dual Talent' alternate racial trait...and that's a good Alternate Racial Trait that people actually like and take.
And really, those are just an example of the endemic problem with the system, which is that the prices and the value of the things they buy are not equivalent. Or even close to equivalent.
OK, but I would like to see a specific rules system designated to creating your own whatever-you-like, such as weapons, armor, equipment, skills, feats, (big 'un for me), your own materials similar to mithral and cold iron, and rules for alternate classes. Just to name a few.
You see my problem?
There are so many overlooked opportunities that Paizo has missed.
classes can't be made with a point system.
They inherently need primary, secondary and tertiary abilities. You need to fill dead levels as well, which would be hard to do with clear cut rules.
For instance a class with druid wildshaping and weapon training, could conceivably be possible in a point system.
Class building is something that you need to learn by carefully considering the existing classes and where it would fall in them.
This is also why I tell people to pretend the race builder doesn't exist when they go to make a race...
you sure? i've had no qualms with itHere are two versions of the stats for a Gnoll race:
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 ChaWhich do you think is more expensive? Hint: It's the first one. The objectively worse one, which is 9 RP to the 5 RP of the second one.
And it's not like that's just theorycrafting. A gnoll was literally the first thing I tried to make in that system.
Another example, is that humans can trade being a 9 RP race for being a 2 RP race with the 'Dual Talent' alternate racial trait...and that's a good Alternate Racial Trait that people actually like and take.
And really, those are just an example of the endemic problem with the system, which is that the prices and the value of the things they buy are not equivalent. Or even close to equivalent.
OK, but I would like to see a specific rules system designated to creating your own whatever-you-like, such as weapons, armor, equipment, skills, feats, (big 'un for me), your own materials similar to mithral and cold iron, and rules for alternate classes. Just to name a few.
You see my problem?
There are so many overlooked opportunities that Paizo has missed.
I think some 3rd party tried but shied away when you compare the points between Wizards and Fighters...
I think Weapon and Armor Master's handbooks do help you customize stuff.
If someone likes to be able to build everything with point buy, there's GURPs. The downside is that combat tends to be quick and deadly, no truckload of hit points to whittle away.
I have to agree with the others on this one. I've been working on a low magic overhaul for D20 for some time now, and for the record it is going well. As a result I've had to ask a lot of questions about class balancing, campaign balancing, etc. There is no magic formula to this process and really does come down to asking questions like: what other classes (or class options) are being allowed in the campaign? Other questions to be asked include things what is the over all level of magic and magic items present in the campaign? What speed of XP progression are you using? etc
Let me give you an example of one idea that I implemented in my overhaul: Armor is DR/-. Ok seems simple enough right? Then came questions like, How is AC determined then? (A: Class Defense bonus) How about injury vs healing? (A: Skill: Healing had to be overhauled) But what is to stop magic armor from just negating this? (A: capped the appearance of magic items) "Well screw that, I'll just make my own magic item!!" (A: restricted magic item creation to NPC only, and dropped the appearance of such to about 5% normal).
etc etc
This all started from a couple of campaign house rules intended to plug a few holes in the original D20 system. In its current form it is a 100 page document I'm hoping to get published within the next 6mo or so.
When you start looking at race, class, campaign balance you really have to think big picture, where as PF / D20 typically has us thinking very small picture about 99% of the time. This is why so many have issues switching between the two ideas when it comes to campaign / world designing.
If you are looking for something that is balanced and works solid at least 90% of the time, it takes some trial and error and a lot of patience. Personally I would tell you that unless game design is more of your hobby than actual role-playing you are better off sticking to the published material.
Of course another option would be to use a different game already set up to allow the sort of customization you are suggesting (Gurps, Hero System, etc).
You are going to have to work out your own system, I have and I'm sure a hundred others on this have. The general framework of the classes is easy but its when you get down to the many little details that it becomes an art of balancing functional abilities and cool factor.
Well, OK. So I'm no longer looking for a Class Builder Ruleset.
But what about the other stuff I want to design? Weapons, armor, etc. etc. See my 6th post for a complete list.
Maybe they could make it a Player Companion or something.
Use existing items as a guide. After all a weapon is nothing but a description of dice, damage types, and crit range for the most part with special rules added for particular weapons.
If a weapon has a lot of tricks it's generally going to be exotic. If it's nothing but a d8 or less, and a crit of 20 it'll be a simple weapon.
Well, OK. So I'm no longer looking for a Class Builder Ruleset.
But what about the other stuff I want to design? Weapons, armor, etc. etc. See my 6th post for a complete list.
Maybe they could make it a Player Companion or something.
that's generally easy, compare them to something else, and if it doesn't completely outclass something of the same tier then it's probably fine.
I'm just afraid of making an imbalanced weapon that all my players chose over, say, an Elven Curved Longsword.
Than don't. Or if you decide to improve one aspect of a weapon, make it at the cost if degrading something else.
It's a general principle in any form of game design, not just weapons... don't make a choice so good that it becomes insane not to choose it over all others.
I've been playing Some form of the D&D game since 1st edition. I've seen at least 3 versions of a class builder with points and Skills & Powers was introduced for 2nd Ed that gave options to change abilities out for others. To date I have not seen one system that can successfully create balanced classes that cover the entire spectrum of melee, support, divine caster, arcane caster, psionic.
It's as if the Devs have their own little book they hide from us players on class creation or they just wing it and hope it's not ridiculously OP or UP. (I think the latter is more likely) based on how many changes 3.0 went through to become 3.5.
Well, the Weapon Master's Handbook does have a system for designing your own weapons (with a few limitations, e.g. not firearms).How 'bout the Armor Master's Handbook?
And why'd they limit the options?
i'm actually kinda annoyed with armor in this game, it's really unbalanced with maybe 2 good options at any tier.
like who would ever use half-plate?
use >this< and never turn back.
|
|
Well, the Weapon Master's Handbook does have a system for designing your own weapons (with a few limitations, e.g. not firearms).How 'bout the Armor Master's Handbook?
And why'd they limit the options?i'm actually kinda annoyed with armor in this game, it's really unbalanced with maybe 2 good options at any tier.
like who would ever use half-plate?
use >this< and never turn back.
One of my friends is playing a Dwarven Fighter and used Rich Parents to buy a half-plate at level 1.
One of my friends is playing a Dwarven Fighter and used Rich Parents to buy a half-plate at level 1.Well, the Weapon Master's Handbook does have a system for designing your own weapons (with a few limitations, e.g. not firearms).How 'bout the Armor Master's Handbook?
And why'd they limit the options?i'm actually kinda annoyed with armor in this game, it's really unbalanced with maybe 2 good options at any tier.
like who would ever use half-plate?
use >this< and never turn back.
that's cool, game balance around level 1 isn't great btw.
also he's down some cash when he switches to full plate.
in fact if he waited like half a level's worth, he should have enough cash for fullplate if he never bought it.
|
|
One of my friends is playing a Dwarven Fighter and used Rich Parents to buy a half-plate at level 1.Well, the Weapon Master's Handbook does have a system for designing your own weapons (with a few limitations, e.g. not firearms).How 'bout the Armor Master's Handbook?
And why'd they limit the options?i'm actually kinda annoyed with armor in this game, it's really unbalanced with maybe 2 good options at any tier.
like who would ever use half-plate?
use >this< and never turn back.
that's cool, game balance around level 1 isn't great btw.
also he's down some cash when he switches to full plate.
in fact if he waited like half a level's worth, he should have enough cash for fullplate if he never bought it.
Actually, we're a rather, um, "low-budget" party. And I don't think he's too interested anyways to buy a full-plate, especially since he's more interested in weapons than armor.
et lux erat
Actually it's "et lux fit"
"erat" would imply that the light is no more.
Game design is a deceptively challenging subject that Paizo is not in the business of teaching.
Do you think it's even possible that Paizo would make this in the future?
oh it's possible, it will be a poorly done and just for the muns though.
I've been playing Some form of the D&D game since 1st edition. I've seen at least 3 versions of a class builder with points and Skills & Powers was introduced for 2nd Ed that gave options to change abilities out for others. To date I have not seen one system that can successfully create balanced classes that cover the entire spectrum of melee, support, divine caster, arcane caster, psionic.
There's no such thing as balance in an "I can do everything" class.
Game design is a deceptively challenging subject that Paizo is not in the business of teaching.What if they're working on it and we just don't know?
I guess this thread is just wishful/wistful thinking.
Game design isn't a science. It is more of an art, and a lot of guestimation involved.
Races, feats, magic items and on can't be designed with some formula that is expected to always work. That is why the race design rules are so bad. Even the magic item creation rules are said to be guidelines.
If you want pointers on design look at the past RPG superstar competitions. Speaking of the contest, some people got the technical aspects correct and still did not do well. Others were creative, but did not follow all of the rules, and did do well.
I'm pretty sure the Fraternal League Of Game Masters Extraordinaire provides something like this for its membership.