Awaken spell question.

[seh1337]

example creature(s), wolf CR1 HD2d8+4 and a dire wolf CR3 HD5d8+15.
with out explaining the cheese to have it. Using the awaken spell on a wolf how would you calculate its new effective CR lvl if you added to HD would those just be straight HD and raise the CR up by 2 putting it in line with a direwolf with far less HP, or would the new HD be "class" lvls?
second with uber cheese having the spell either maximized or max and enlarged effectively making its stats int 20, wis 12, char 6 or int a 29!!!!, wis 12 and char 9-10(can't remember if you round up of down) respectively. now i understand it is a bit much I'm asking mechanics, i could not find a ruling on this.
reason for asking I'm about to take the leadership feat and think a "awakened direwolf" would be pretty rad. but i have to keep him 2 lvls below me and i have no clue what his "lvl" would be.
thanks you in advance

[seh1337]

Bump

[KainPen]

never though about maximizing, empowering awaken spell,That makes an awesome plant companion.

As far as I know you are going to have to ask your GM normally hit dice are a reflection of level. because every 3 hit dice = 1 feat every 4 = ability point raise. But then you have this whole effective level for monster to be cohorts which is very confusing. like a Worg is effective 5 level, as leadership is concerned despite it cr 2 being and hit dice only be a 4.

[seh1337]

Right an 29 int cohort would be sick. herolabs says it's a CR5 CL7 which is weird.

KainPen wrote:

never though about maximizing, empowering awaken spell,That makes an awesome plant companion.

As far as I know you are going to have to ask your GM normally hit dice are a reflection of level. because every 3 hit dice = 1 feat every 4 = ability point raise. But then you have this whole effective level for monster to be cohorts which is very confusing. like a Worg is effective 5 level, as leadership is concerned despite it cr 2 being and hit dice only be a 4.

[Skylancer4]

It is because some abilities are deemed more powerful under the PCs control.

Think of it the other way, a CR 5 monster is supposed to be a challenge for four characters. Adding that CR 5 to the party isn't just an incremental boost, so the level/CR is near impossible to trade one for one into leadership. That is why the table has such an inflated "cost" for monstrous type creatures in comparison to CR.

Also, if the creature has such a high intelligence, chances are it wouldn't want anything to do with you even if it were thankful for the spell being cast. You are an adventurer and will probably get it killed. It is smart enough to know how to live in relative luxury no danger involved, as it is vastly more intelligent than anyone else in the party if not the entire geographical area.

[ryric]

Remember if you Maximize and Empower a spell you get the maximum plus half the normal roll - so a maximized empowered awaken would give 18+1/2(3d6) Int(note it sets the Int to this, it doesn't add), +3+1/2(1d3) Cha (this adds), and +2 HD(not maximized).

So you'd net:19-27 Int, average 23
+3-4 Cha

I'm fairly certain that Empower and Maximize weren't meant to be used with awaken, but we're talking an effective 10th level spell effect here so whatever, go to town.

I'd say the 2 HD granted by the spell are Magical Beast HD. After, I'd probably allow it to advance with either class levels or more magical beast, depending on the campaign situation or player preference.

[Orfamay Quest]

Skylancer4 wrote:

It is because some abilities are deemed more powerful under the PCs control.

This, exactly. One of the issues with CR is that bad guys are generally expected to be encountered once and then to die. So one wish per year is, in the hands of an opponent, more or less exactly as powerful as one wish per hour, or one wish ever. You encounter it, it casts its wish, and then dies horribly at the hands of the party.

However, if there were some way to get that monster as a cohort, casting one wish per hour,.... oh, the havoc I could cause rampaging through dungeons.

[Entryhazard]

KainPen wrote:

never though about maximizing, empowering awaken spell,That makes an awesome plant companion.

As far as I know you are going to have to ask your GM normally hit dice are a reflection of level. because every 3 hit dice = 1 feat every 4 = ability point raise. But then you have this whole effective level for monster to be cohorts which is very confusing. like a Worg is effective 5 level, as leadership is concerned despite it cr 2 being and hit dice only be a 4.

Actually it's 1 feat every 2 hit dice starting from 1 (so every odd)

[ryric]

Yeah, CR is a measure of how tough an opponent a creature is in a fight. That can differ drastically from how effective a creature would be as an adventurer.

Imagine a creature who has a special ability to see through doors. That probably merits no CR increase - it's a cool flavor ability that might prevent a surprise round, but once fighting starts it likely won't come up. But on a PC, that's a super powerful scouting ability that would get used all the time.

Movement modes are another ability that tends to be more effective as a PC than as a monster ability. Also remember that a PC group is likely to equip their oddball member with a bunch of magic items. A straight dire wolf is less effective than one with barding, stat boosters, and so forth.

[Orfamay Quest]

ryric wrote:

Yeah, CR is a measure of how tough an opponent a creature is in a fight. That can differ drastically from how effective a creature would be as an adventurer.

And, of course, there are other abilities that are much more powerful as opponents than as adventurers, like the vrock's dance of ruin. Because who has four vrock cohorts at the same time?

[seh1337]

Thank you all this has been very insightful. And now makes more sense, especially the feat clarification.

[seh1337]

Tho I don't see how a awakened dire wolf would be much stronger then a 5th lvl fighter. not a 7th like it's saying it's CL is on hero labs (just had a friend try it out) it is a CR5. Granted the large and reach is nice, stats are about the same or am I missing something?

[KainPen]

Entryhazard wrote:

KainPen wrote:

never though about maximizing, empowering awaken spell,That makes an awesome plant companion.

As far as I know you are going to have to ask your GM normally hit dice are a reflection of level. because every 3 hit dice = 1 feat every 4 = ability point raise. But then you have this whole effective level for monster to be cohorts which is very confusing. like a Worg is effective 5 level, as leadership is concerned despite it cr 2 being and hit dice only be a 4.

Actually it's 1 feat every 2 hit dice starting from 1 (so every odd)

yeah I was thinking 3.5 not pathfinder on that portion. more feats in pathfinder, another thing that support hide dice are their actual levels is base attack and saves are also based on it as well as most spell like abilities. There a few exceptions like Ogre-mage oni cast as 9 hit dice even thou they are only 8 hit dice.

[ryric]

The 7th level in HeroLab is probably based on using it as a mount. These things presume you're using the critter in the most optimal way the author can think of, so think of the dire wolf as a tripping mount, wearing barding, negating hits with Mounted Combat. Is that worth 2 levels of adjustment? I personally don't think so, but that's likely where they're coming from.

[KainPen]

ryric wrote:

The 7th level in HeroLab is probably based on using it as a mount. These things presume you're using the critter in the most optimal way the author can think of, so think of the dire wolf as a tripping mount, wearing barding, negating hits with Mounted Combat. Is that worth 2 levels of adjustment? I personally don't think so, but that's likely where they're coming from.

It would not be two levels of adjustment because an awake dire wolf is 7 hit dice, not 5 like normal dire wolf. with effective bab as 7 level 3/4 bab class with 7 levels saves, feats, and ability points.

I think Awaken Animal fit in at what ever their hit dice is to be uses as cohorts, their stats are going to be higher then normal npc, especial after they get their 1st class level in actual class and get the ability boost from that. from the monster rules "Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores."