| Theodor Snuddletusk |
I am terrible at item creation, so i come here to get a few answers.
I am wondering if there are ways to make an item cheaper, but making it "worse".
Lets take a ring of invisibility as an example.
If i got my in game church to make this item, and they sat charges (3 each day), and parameters around only followers of the god can use it, or only good aligned people can use it. (Lets say the church is the church of Tyr).
How about only male users allowed? If for example it is made from a dojo where they train men only.
| QuidEst |
Don't.
The custom magic item rules are general guidelines for the GM to create items, not for players to ignore WBL. The rules say that you should look at the overall usefulness of the item as compared to published ones, and making an item that is super-specific to only your character should provide no discount at all.
| Bill Dunn |
Putting charges on an item that doesn't require charges is a reasonable means of making it less useful and reducing the cost. Limiting it to an alignment, religion, gender, race or anything like that is usually a bad move.
There's an old piece of advice from Champions - a superhero RPG where powers are constructed and bought with points - if a limitation doesn't limit you, it isn't worth a discount. Charges can reasonable limit you when the item is normally unlimited in that regard. Tailored items, as long as they're tailored to the PC, aren't a limitation.
| Theodor Snuddletusk |
I agree regarding charges. If you dont need to have permanent invisibility available. Just have it for 2-3 times each day. Why spend X times more gold?
Regarding limitations for religions or genders or similar things i dont view them as a bad move, generally yes, but not completely.
If a church of some religion gives out swords to their followers than they would not want them to be used by none-believers, or sold by fallen followers etc.
Just like Judge Dread`s gun that is imprinted with his dna, it would lower the creation cost quite a lot.
| Protoman |
I agree regarding charges. If you dont need to have permanent invisibility available. Just have it for 2-3 times each day. Why spend X times more gold?
Regarding limitations for religions or genders or similar things i dont view them as a bad move, generally yes, but not completely.
If a church of some religion gives out swords to their followers than they would not want them to be used by none-believers, or sold by fallen followers etc.
Just like Judge Dread`s gun that is imprinted with his dna, it would lower the creation cost quite a lot.
Making it limited to only certain users that the creator of the magic item specifies that doesn't limit himself shouldn't give a discount for himself. He made it an exclusive item and those wouldn't be cheap.
If trying to sell it, it should sell for less since there wouldn't be much of a market for it.
The example of Judge Dredd's Gun, no one is gonna think it being DNA-locked is gonna make it cheaper. They had to invest MORE into the gun for it to do that.
| QuidEst |
If it's easy to make something with restrictions, then why are PCs able to use any of the loot they find off bad guys? It would be super-specifically tailored to the original owner, either for the discount or to discourage muggers.
As for reducing something to charges per day, that's what we've got wands for, so I wouldn't do it for anything that imitates a spell.
| Daw |
QuidEst wrote:
If it's easy to make something with restrictions, then why are PCs able to use any of the loot they find off bad guys? It would be super-specifically tailored to the original owner, either for the discount or to discourage muggers.
Reasons why user restrictions would not be common.
1. Easy does not mean free.
2. Most items are not made for the creator.
a. Most items are made for sale in the Pathfider economy.
3. Even if an owned item is never, ever sold, even adventurers can hope to have heirs.
4. Disagree that user restrictions would ever grant an end user purchase discount.
a. If you can use it, a merchant will charge you at least full price, he is making back for shelf time.
| Saethori |
Limiting it to an alignment, religion, gender, race or anything like that is usually a bad move.
This is always going to be true. A wizard might craft an item in a way that it can only be used by female elves, but if the intended recipient is a female elf, there is literally no downside involved for the PCs, and therefore they should not receive a discount.
Which is not to say the item isn't affected. An item that can only be used by female elves may cost 50% to craft, but its resale value is going to be much lower, because you just massively undermined the range of prospective buyers. Similarly, such items are not going to be readily available for the PCs to purchase, though it might be an interesting technique for the GM to include similarly locked items in creative ways (such as a belt of strength only females can use, when all the martial characters in the party are male.)
| Bob Bob Bob |
So in terms of price, 5/day and at-will cost the same. If you want to change an at-will to X/day, you can just multiply it by X/5.
However, that's a very... optimistic suggestion. Item creation is a lovely cluster@#$% of exceptions, guesses, and #@$pulls. You'll notice the ring can't possibly have that price based on the table. Doesn't matter what formula you use, you can't get that price. Command word? 10,800. Use activated/continuous? 24,000. That being said, converting at-will to charges should end up at either equal to or more expensive than the "appropriate" price. I can't think of anything that already comes at-will that would somehow be made more powerful by limiting it per day.
As for the restrictions, I've actually seen a great suggestion (possibly an editing error, possibly intentional) that you should treat reductions to the price as just reducing the resale price, not the cost to create. So needing a skill (something anyone can do) is a cost reduction but needing a certain class/alignment isn't, just makes it resell for less. I do still strongly recommend against it though, as it leads to a lovely rabbit hole of "everything is semi-tailored to the users" and the players find that most of their loot they can't use and it sells for less. Imagine telling the players they find a treasure chest full of gold... only it's just gold-plated, and worth about a tenth the price. Like that.
| Anguish |
I believe the price-reduction mechanisms are intended for design, to construction.
What I mean is, they are present for a GM/game designer to use, not a player with Craft feats. They're not there for a player to look at and say "I want to make an existing item, only add restrictions to lower cost", but rather they're there for DMs to use when designing a sword that can only be wielded by evil creatures.
An item that is only usable by a player's PC has exactly the same utility as an item that is usable by anyone. Reducing the cost without reducing utility isn't the intent.