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If the party fights an incorporeal creature that hides in the ground which consists of earth, can the druid shift into an earth elemental to use earth glide to attack the incorporeal?
He would have to face total concealment but apart from that, would it work?
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If he has a way to locate the incorporeal I say yes. Which is going to be really tricky, as he has no physical body. Neither tremorsense nor blindsight will help in this case, maybe detect undead or evil will.
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Blindsight can't see ethereal creatures, and incorporeal creatures are sort of undefined as to if they can be seen with blindsight. "either ineffective or partially effective" is not exactly obvious. Tremorsense should not work, but by RAW, you could make a case for it. It lets you see "anything that is in contact with the ground", which an incorporeal undead could be said to be.
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Earthglide does not allow you to punch through the earth, and that would be needed to hit someone in an adjacent square while they are beneath the ground. If it worked like that earth elementals could stay below the ground, and attack those who are above ground.
It allows for them to travel through the Earth, nothing more.
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Earthglide does not allow you to punch through the earth, and that would be needed to hit someone in an adjacent square while they are beneath the ground. If it worked like that earth elementals could stay below the ground, and attack those who are above ground.
It allows for them to travel through the Earth, nothing more.
But... that doesn't make any sense. They already have the ability to punch adjacent foes, why would earth glide need to grant it to them? They have tremorsense, which means they will be able to hit people in contact with the earth at a 20% miss chance if they cannot see them.
EDIT: woops, 50% miss chance
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Locating the incorporeal creature is going to be the problem. Tremorsense and Blindsense/Blindsight (usually) won't work here.
Tremorsense: The incorporeal creature does not make contact with the ground it occupies so tremorsense will not work.
Blindsense/Blindsight usually rely upon senses such as hearing, which also won't work since incorporeal creatures are silent. Visual based Blindsense/Blindsight will not work either because it is underground.
Only if the Blindsense/Blindsight was based on a non-visual, non-auditory sense would it work (perhaps something similar to lifesense but applicable to undead).
wraithstrike, I don't believe you are correct here.
Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water.
To the user of Earth Glide the earth is the same as water is to a fish. Fish can attack other fish in water, so the user of Earth Glide can do so as well.
Sissyl, incorporeal creatures are no longer ethereal, that was one of the changes Pathfinder made from D&D3.5.
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If the party fights an incorporeal creature that hides in the ground which consists of earth, can the druid shift into an earth elemental to use earth glide to attack the incorporeal?
He would have to face total concealment but apart from that, would it work?
I've run into the incorporeals that like to fight from walls. The usual way to counter those shenannigans are with readied actions.
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I agree with Gauss here. The earthglide ability mentions passing through earthen material as if it were water. When making an attack, your weapon has to pass through whatever medium surrounds it, with it's normal Newtonian resistance to that effort (normally air).
So, an attack while earth gliding would follow the normal rules for attacking while under water, as long as the weapon can maintain the earthglide enchantment (which means normally melee only -- with some exceptions).
I've run into the incorporeals that like to fight from walls. The usual way to counter those shenannigans are with readied actions.
If you have a druid or ranger, use earth glide and see through stone, and you can go on the offensive.
Or use readied actions with ghost touched mancatchers.
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Gauss: I am well aware of that. That is why I wrote what I wrote.
Note that since incorporeal creatures are no longer on another plane, they sort of have to "be in contact with the ground". This is even more clear since they need some part of their bodies outside it.
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I don't believe rangers have such options.
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I don't believe rangers have such options.
Ranger spell, level 3, Dwarves of Golarion. See Through Stone
Locating the incorporeal creature is going to be the problem. Tremorsense and Blindsense/Blindsight (usually) won't work here.
Tremorsense: The incorporeal creature does not make contact with the ground it occupies so tremorsense will not work.
Blindsense/Blindsight usually rely upon senses such as hearing, which also won't work since incorporeal creatures are silent. Visual based Blindsense/Blindsight will not work either because it is underground.
Only if the Blindsense/Blindsight was based on a non-visual, non-auditory sense would it work (perhaps something similar to lifesense but applicable to undead).wraithstrike, I don't believe you are correct here.
Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water.To the user of Earth Glide the earth is the same as water is to a fish. Fish can attack other fish in water, so the user of Earth Glide can do so as well.
Sissyl, incorporeal creatures are no longer ethereal, that was one of the changes Pathfinder made from D&D3.5.
Moving through water is not attacking into another square. I am still sure earth elementals can't attack people above the ground because of cover.
edit: If that were the case you would need the strikeback feat to attack them, since you that is the only way to attack limbs when you can't reach the square something occupies.
Moving through water is not attacking into another square.
you aren't "moving through water", you are "passing through". Note the verbiage that does not restrict activity to just movement.
And in order to attack something adjacent to them a fish would very much indeed have to "pass through" water to make an attack. Just like a normal humanoid would have to "pass through" the air to do the same.
Moving through water is not attacking into another square.
you aren't "moving through water", you are "passing through". Note the verbiage that does not restrict activity to just movement.
And in order to attack something adjacent to them a fish would very much indeed have to "pass through" water to make an attack. Just like a normal humanoid would have to "pass through" the air to do the same.
Humans do not pass through air when attacking. I see this as an attempt to change the normal use of the words. If I say I pass through the schoolyard, through town, and so on me moving my hand into the area does not count as passing through it. I have to actually go through it. So me moving my hand around does not count as me passing through anything.
That and I don't think Paizo would force someone to take strike back just to deal with a creature.
Unlike incorporeal creatures, who give you a chance to hit them an earth elemental would never have to reveal itself.
Despite them not being too bright, they are smart enough to attack from the most advantageous position, and if they can hit you, while you can't hit them, there is not too much that trumps that.
edit: "Swims though" is pretty much synonamous with "move through"
If I say I pass through the schoolyard, through town, and so on me moving my hand into the area does not count as passing through it.
You have to be able to move your hand into that area prior to being able to complete the movement of your hand out of the area. And when swinging a sword or attacking with a claw, that's exactly what you do. You reach out, hit them, then draw the weapon back to it's original position.
Nothing about "pass through" requires entering and then exiting a zone on opposite corners. You can enter and exit through the same location and you have passed through that location.
You do not need strike back at all, because you can attack adjacent creatures while earth gliding.
"fish swims through water" is a description of ease of effort of an activity, not a restriction on movement.
If I say I pass through the schoolyard, through town, and so on me moving my hand into the area does not count as passing through it.
You have to be able to move your hand into that area prior to being able to complete the movement of your hand out of the area. And when swinging a sword or attacking with a claw, that's exactly what you do. You reach out, hit them, then draw the weapon back to it's original position.
Nothing about "pass through" requires entering and then exiting a zone on opposite corners. You can enter and exit through the same location and you have passed through that location.
You do not need strike back at all, because you can attack adjacent creatures while earth gliding.
With regard to strikeback I was saying the PC's would need it.
Earthglide does not allow you to punch through the earth, and that would be needed to hit someone in an adjacent square while they are beneath the ground. If it worked like that earth elementals could stay below the ground, and attack those who are above ground.
It allows for them to travel through the Earth, nothing more.
Earth elementals can stay below ground while attacking those on the surface.
They have always been able to do so. They just have to deal with total concealment.
Earthglide does not allow you to punch through the earth, and that would be needed to hit someone in an adjacent square while they are beneath the ground. If it worked like that earth elementals could stay below the ground, and attack those who are above ground.
It allows for them to travel through the Earth, nothing more.
Earth elementals can stay below ground while attacking those on the surface.
They have always been able to do so. They just have to deal with total concealment.
1. Do you have any proof?
2. How was this dealt with in 3.5 and Pathfinder(other than the strikeback feat)?
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Wraithstrike this is a situation in which you need to provide proof for your stance. Earth Elementals have the ability to attack, they have the ability to earth glide, they have tremorsense. You will need to provide some example of these abilities canceling each other out, not the other way around.
Move Earth, climb a tree, fly, swim, burrow, run away. It sucks when it happens but its not impossible to deal with.
I don't believe rangers have such options.Ranger spell, level 3, Dwarves of Golarion. See Through Stone
That only gives you the ability to LOOK through stone, not glide through it.
Wraithstrike this is a situation in which you need to provide proof for your stance. Earth Elementals have the ability to attack, they have the ability to earth glide, they have tremorsense. You will need to provide some example of these abilities canceling each other out, not the other way around.
Move Earth, climb a tree, fly, swim, burrow, run away. It sucks when it happens but its not impossible to deal with.
The ability never says they can attack through the dirt. It is an extrapolation being made with no backup. If anyone needs to provide proof it is not me.
I have even provided a 2nd reason as to why it should not work, but that is being ignored.
The ball is not in my court right now.
Your answer did not address how to defeat the earth elemental. Running away is not always an option, not all of those options are going to be availible.
Telling me it sucks is not the same as saying "here is what to do".
Despite what many optimizers(such as myself) like to list as options that players should try to get ASAP, flying is not always an option. As for the other things, I am sure you know why they are not always an option without me having to mention them.
I am not needing a dev to give an answer, but I do need more than extrapolation, and some hope of escape that isn't promised.
Even another ability that supports the stance works.
As an example I have used class abilities in other discussions to show evidence that certain things are not allowed by the normal rules. As an example the ranged fighter archetype allows for you to do combat maneuvers without being in melee.
That or a rule that I am missing that allows the party to deal with issue other than hoping the GM put in an escape path or the entire party can fly, or they just happen to be in a terrain that allows them to lose the elemental, or hoping someone took feat X or something like move earth, IIRC that damages them.
So far I am seeing no solid rule proof or ideas to stop the tactic that can be shown to generally work.
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Answer this: In what way does having a special movement type STOP you from attacking?
After you answer that I can try and find some exception for this case, but from where im standing there is no conflict between moving in a certain medium and also attacking across the barrier into another medium, much less within the same medium. Krakens do that exact thing all the time, anything with ground-to-air or air-to-ground does that all the time. Incorporeal to corporeal and vice versa. The added wrinkles of cover and concealment do not cancel out your ability to attack as long as you have some way to deal with them, and in this case Earth Glide and Tremorsense combined seem to account for both cover and concealment respectively.
Answer this: In what way does having a special movement type STOP you from attacking?
After you answer that I can try and find some exception for this case, but from where im standing there is no conflict between moving in a certain medium and also attacking across the barrier into another medium, much less within the same medium. Krakens do that exact thing all the time, anything with ground-to-air or air-to-ground does that all the time. Incorporeal to corporeal and vice versa. The added wrinkles of cover and concealment do not cancel out your ability to attack as long as you have some way to deal with them, and in this case Earth Glide and Tremorsense combined seem to account for both cover and concealment respectively.
I never said a special movement type could stop anyone from attacking.
I am saying the whatever is on the other side of the earth has total cover, and the earth elemental being able to move through it is not the same as being able to attack creatures in other squares if he has to go through the cover.
From what I am reading people are saying the earth elemental gets to ignore the cover based on him being able to travel through earth, but I am not seeing it. <---Rules based issues
Nor am I seeing how PF or 3.5 expected for you to deal with the encounter unless you were specially prepared for it and/or of a certain level. Insert other corner cases such as someone having strikeback or making sure the PC's can run away, which is not really always an option.<-----Logically I can't see how to get around this with .
Answer this: In what way does having a special movement type STOP you from attacking?
After you answer that I can try and find some exception for this case, but from where im standing there is no conflict between moving in a certain medium and also attacking across the barrier into another medium, much less within the same medium. Krakens do that exact thing all the time, anything with ground-to-air or air-to-ground does that all the time. Incorporeal to corporeal and vice versa. The added wrinkles of cover and concealment do not cancel out your ability to attack as long as you have some way to deal with them, and in this case Earth Glide and Tremorsense combined seem to account for both cover and concealment respectively.
I never said a special attack could stop anyone from attacking.
I am saying the whatever is on the other side of the earth has total cover, and the earth elemental being able to move through it is not the same as being able to attack creatures in other squares if he has to go through the cover.
From what I am reading people are saying the earth elemental gets to ignore the cover based on him being able to travel through earth, but I am not seeing it. <---Rules based issues
Nor am I seeing how PF or 3.5 expected for you to deal with the encounter unless you were specially prepared for it and/or of a certain level. Insert other corner cases such as someone having strikeback or making sure the PC's can run away, which is not really always an option.<-----Logically I can't see how to get around this with .
If the 'cover' is made of a material that the earth elemental has a special movement type specifically allowing them to move through then it is not cover at all. The same way the surface of water does not provide cover against attackers in the water and a wall of air is not cover for anything.
In fact, if you look at the rules for attacking something on 'land' from in the water you will see that it is only the thing in the water that receives any benefit of cover.
Side question: At what point was it insinuated that special movement types meant someone could not attack? Before we go back and forth for due to a misunderstanding I want to be sure you are understanding what I am writing.
Side question: At what point was it insinuated that special movement types meant someone could not attack? Before we go back and forth for due to a misunderstanding I want to be sure you are understanding what I am writing.
Side question answer: by saying that something that uses earth glide cannot attack something on the surface that's what you are insinuating.
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Ok, lets look at the various elements here:
1) Is Burrow clearly defined? No
In 3.5 burrow was barely defined, in PF it is even less defined. The major change appears to be the removal of the 'cant charge or run' statement that 3.5 had.
2) Is Earth Glide clearly defined? Also no, but it clearly does indicate that, for at least some purposes it functions as water. Which purposes is the disagreement.
3) Can a creature with burrow attack another creature underground?
If the answer is no then we have a potentially ridiculous situation.
Situation: there is nothing in the rules that states a burrowing creature can create a tunnel thereby opening up space. Yet we know that burrowing creatures create tunnels through many many references in the various adventures etc.
So, if the answer is no then it directly contradicts the logic that burrowing creatures create tunnels thereby allowing themselves to meet other burrowing creatures that create tunnels.
Earth Glide is an extension of burrow but leaves behind no tunnel, so #3 clearly solves both.
4) Can a creature with burrow attack a creature on the surface? If the answer is no then how does the burrowing creature REACH the surface? You have Schrodinger's burrower.
Clearly, burrowing creatures can reach the surface, clearly they create holes to attack from.
Earth glide is, against, an extension of this but they ignore the lack of a hole.
Now, how that gets resolved is not in the rules, but you can look to the incorporeal rules to address it (which btw, wraithstrike suggested a couple years ago in another post on this topic).
In short, there is no RAW on this, you have to look at the RAI.
P.S. Cover is only cover if it is solid to the attack. If you are using something that passes through the material then there is no cover, but it is probably concealment.
Side question: At what point was it insinuated that special movement types meant someone could not attack? Before we go back and forth for due to a misunderstanding I want to be sure you are understanding what I am writing.Side question answer: by saying that something that uses earth glide cannot attack something on the surface that's what you are insinuating.
Before that I explained that there was cover in the way, but I do see how that comment may have been missed.
Except even if we take your position on this wraithstrike there is still no cover. You determine cover by what is interposed between the corners of your square (or cube) and the corners of the opponent's square (or cube). If you are just below the surface then there is no such cover.
Example: (H = human on surface, B = Burrower just underneath the human)
H
B
No cover.
Now, if the burrower was 10' away then there would be cover.
Ok, lets look at the various elements here:
1) Is Burrow clearly defined? No
In 3.5 burrow was barely defined, in PF it is even less defined. The major change appears to be the removal of the 'cant charge or run' statement that 3.5 had.2) Is Earth Glide clearly defined? Also no, but it clearly does indicate that, for at least some purposes it functions as water. Which purposes is the disagreement.
3) Can a creature with burrow attack another creature underground?
If the answer is no then we have a potentially ridiculous situation.
Situation: there is nothing in the rules that states a burrowing creature can create a tunnel thereby opening up space. Yet we know that burrowing creatures create tunnels through many many references in the various adventures etc.
So, if the answer is no then it directly contradicts the logic that burrowing creatures create tunnels thereby allowing themselves to meet other burrowing creatures that create tunnels.Earth Glide is an extension of burrow but leaves behind no tunnel, so #3 clearly solves both.
4) Can a creature with burrow attack a creature on the surface? If the answer is no then how does the burrowing creature REACH the surface? You have Schrodinger's burrower.
Clearly, burrowing creatures can reach the surface, clearly they create holes to attack from.
Earth glide is, against, an extension of this but they ignore the lack of a hole.
Now, how that gets resolved is not in the rules, but you can look to the incorporeal rules to address it (which btw, wraithstrike suggested a couple years ago in another post on this topic).
In short, there is no RAW on this, you have to look at the RAI.
P.S. Cover is only cover if it is solid to the attack. If you are using something that passes through the material then there is no cover, but it is probably concealment.
2. It never gives complete equation to water. It only says it moves through it as if it is swimming.
3. Burrowing creatures can't attack through the earth either, not unless they can come to an empty pocket, at which point they are no longer burrowing.
4. It reaches the surface by traveling through the ground until it is above ground. That has nothing to do with being able to attack through the earth. To allow this would give more reach than the ability was intended to have.
The attack itself also creates no holes.
I do agree that if the creature can ignore cover it is effectively "not cover", but I don't see it as "not cover" in this case.
Except even if we take your position on this wraithstrike there is still no cover. You determine cover by what is interposed between the corners of your square (or cube) and the corners of the opponent's square (or cube). If you are just below the surface then there is no such cover.
Example: (H = human on surface, B = Burrower just underneath the human)
H
BNo cover.
Now, if the burrower was 10' away then there would be cover.
I don't the distance matters. Either you can attack through solid ground or you can not. If a human is under the ground(how he isnt' suffocationg doesnt matter for this case), he cant attack someone above ground.
Being adjacent does not remove cover. Otherwise Wall of Force would not work in some cases.
I personally would prefer if it did work, but I would also prefer if they used the incorporeal rules for readied actions to attack the earth elemental in return.
Of course rather than just go back and forth I will just start an FAQ asking if not mentioning that was an error.
PS: Actually I prefer for it to be started by someone else so that my wording doesn't appear biased.
Again, you are ignore the lack of rules here. You are failing to look at the RAI, which is rather surprising since once you did.
2. moves through does not necessarily mean movement mode ONLY.
3. you are not extending the logic of how do two burrowing creatures meet under earth and attack each other. Please resolve that because if the answer is "they can't" then you have reached a ridiculous conclusion.
You mention an 'empty pocket'. Please show that in the rules. Please show how a burrower can or cannot create one.
You are applying the general rules without looking at how might burrowing be made to work. At WORST your answer should be 'as written burrowing does not work correctly since it has no rules'.
4. Please show that in the rules. Please show how a creature that has reached the surface has to get ON the surface to interact with it.
I am not stating the attack is creating holes. I am stating that there is no ground-surface barrier to a burrowing creature because he has burrowed to the surface and now resides in a 5' deep hole.
However, Earth Glide does not need to create such a hole, so the 5' deep hole exists only for the elemental while it does not exist for creatures attacking it (though it should still has to expose itself to attack similar to an incorporeal creature).
Ultimately, you are arguing a lack of rules as if there were rules present. There are not.
Except even if we take your position on this wraithstrike there is still no cover. You determine cover by what is interposed between the corners of your square (or cube) and the corners of the opponent's square (or cube). If you are just below the surface then there is no such cover.
Example: (H = human on surface, B = Burrower just underneath the human)
H
BNo cover.
Now, if the burrower was 10' away then there would be cover.
I don't the distance matters. Either you can attack through solid ground or you can not. If a human is under the ground(how he isnt' suffocationg doesnt matter for this case), he cant attack someone above ground.
Being adjacent does not remove cover. Otherwise Wall of Force would not work in some cases.
I think your definition of what Earth Glide does is flawed. You are saying that the power to 'move through' the earth is not enough to allow it to attack through the earth (in as much as the earth would otherwise be considered cover).
Why, if it's entire body can move through the earth, would a single part of it's body consider the earth to be a physical barrier? That doesn't seem to follow from your own definition (correct me if i have incorrectly understood your definition).
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4. Either there is a clear point to the surface or there is not. If he is below ground there is cover. If he is above ground there is no cover. There is no rule saying you have to above ground to interact with it, but the rules do state that you attack beyond cover.
In my old post I said
"Note that only one of these ignores concealment. The others only give the location.
The earth element still can't attack through the ground so it does not matter. I will ask this question again though. If the elemental could stay submerged and attack freely then why would it ever come to the surface?"
I was not disagreeing with what I said today.
I also said "Yes really. Ignoring cover is not a small thing. If there is no specific rule rule that says you can break a general rule then you can't do it. There is no rule saying the earth elemental can break the rule of bypassing cover."
Some of my later quotes were written to make a point that if tremorsense and earthglide worked a certain way this would be possible.
However if I changed my mind in another thread feel free to provide a link.
While we know James Jacobs is not official in any way you and I have at least taken his word as meaning something if there is no other Dev comments to the contrary.
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While we know James Jacobs is not official in any way you and I have at least taken his word as meaning something if there is no other Dev comments to the contrary.
I haven't always taken his word. When he want to apply the Intensified Spell feat to magic missile or scorching ray I disagreed with that.
I don't think we are going to agree on this one, but out of curiosity how would you expect a party to defeat an elemental(s) in this case without strikeback under your interpretation of how the rule works?
We can assume the party is level 7 or lower for this question.
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You shortened my statement. I said 'taken his word as meaning something'. I did not flat out state 'taken his word'. Please, keep my statements in context. :)
Simple, use the water rules because that is what Earth Glide says. The Earth Elemental gets Improved Cover.
As an alternate, house rule, you could use the incorporeal rules which would prevent full attacks (readied actions only) but reduce the cover bonus from +8 to +4.
Personally, I would use the incorporeal rules as they fit more closely.
But in either case, JJ also stated in another post that burrowing rules are really undersupported in Pathfinder. Because of this you really need to look at the RAI rather than the RAW.
Expect massive table variance.
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You shortened my statement. I said 'taken his word as meaning something'. I did not flat out state 'taken his word'. Please, keep my statements in context. :)
Simple, use the water rules because that is what Earth Glide says. The Earth Elemental gets Improved Cover.
As an alternate, house rule, you could use the incorporeal rules which would prevent full attacks (readied actions only) but reduce the cover bonus from +8 to +4.
Personally, I would use the incorporeal rules as they fit more closely.
But in either case, JJ also stated in another post that burrowing rules are really undersupported in Pathfinder. Because of this you really need to look at the RAI rather than the RAW.
Expect massive table variance.
That is fair. :)
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It's not often that I disagree with Wraithstrike, but this time I do.
I think using Earth Glide to attack incorporeal or other creatures hiding in walls, floors and other solid material is valid. The treatment of earth as water for the purposes of melee attack penalties seems reasonable. I would also rule that in such cases the earth provides total concealment rather than total cover. The earth glider can't see their opponent but the earth isn't providing cover, other than acting as water.
Having the earth elemental use real earth as cover seems like a valid tactic. They would suffer the in-water penalties as well though so is more likely to be used as an ambush or defensive tactic.
Except even if we take your position on this wraithstrike there is still no cover. You determine cover by what is interposed between the corners of your square (or cube) and the corners of the opponent's square (or cube). If you are just below the surface then there is no such cover.
Example: (H = human on surface, B = Burrower just underneath the human)
H
BNo cover.
Now, if the burrower was 10' away then there would be cover.
I don't the distance matters. Either you can attack through solid ground or you can not. If a human is under the ground(how he isnt' suffocationg doesnt matter for this case), he cant attack someone above ground.
Being adjacent does not remove cover. Otherwise Wall of Force would not work in some cases.
I think your definition of what Earth Glide does is flawed. You are saying that the power to 'move through' the earth is not enough to allow it to attack through the earth (in as much as the earth would otherwise be considered cover).
Why, if it's entire body can move through the earth, would a single part of it's body consider the earth to be a physical barrier? That doesn't seem to follow from your own definition (correct me if i have incorrectly understood your definition).
Earthglide basically works like burrowing in that in can move its body through the earth, but it can no more attack someone through solid ground than a beaver could, and they also burrow. That is how it can move itself through earth without being able to attack through it.
Earthglide =/= Burrow. not sure where you got that idea from? The earth is still a physical barrier to something that burrows, but not for something that earthglides.
Ridiculon, Earth Glide is burrow++.
The problem I think Wraithstrike is having is that he is thinking that there is solid earth in the way when there isn't.
For regular burrow, the RAI should be that no part of the burrowers square (cube) is earth so long as that creature occupies it, otherwise it could not maneuver inside it's own square (cube) and would be considered squeezing. But like all things regarding burrow, there is no rules support telling us how burrow even works.
Thus, if you have a burrower next to another burrower there is nothing between them because they both occupy a 'hole' in the earth and the 'holes' are adjacent to each other.
Earth Glide sidesteps all of this by treating earth as water. In that wraithstrike is applying that only to movement while it is our contention that it applies to all aspects of being under the ground.
There will be no resolution in this thread regarding that point since the rules are so sparse.
Simply put, there is no RAW debate here, there cannot be. The burrow rules are non-existent beyond 'you have a burrow speed'.
I don't think we are going to agree on this one, but out of curiosity how would you expect a party to defeat an elemental(s) in this case without strikeback under your interpretation of how the rule works?
Use the same rules you would use for fighting back against incorporeal creatures attacking from a wall.
An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks.
RAW does not give us an explicit answer, but it does offer us an example of how the problem is dealt with in near identical circumstances.
I don't think we are going to agree on this one, but out of curiosity how would you expect a party to defeat an elemental(s) in this case without strikeback under your interpretation of how the rule works?Use the same rules you would use for fighting back against incorporeal creatures attacking from a wall.
An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks.RAW does not give us an explicit answer, but it does offer us an example of how the problem is dealt with in near identical circumstances.
That rule is specifically for incorporeal creatures. It it said something like "creatures who can attack from behind barriers..." that would be different.
Personally I think that is not a bad way to handle it, but the rules don't support that.
Earthglide =/= Burrow. not sure where you got that idea from? The earth is still a physical barrier to something that burrows, but not for something that earthglides.
It does not equal burrow, but that does not mean it has extra abilities beyond burrow either.
How is something supposed to fight(not run away from) an earth elemental under you interpretation at levels 7th, and earlier?
They max out at CR 11 so it makes sense that if they can ignore the ground as a barrier Paizo had some idea of how to defeat them.
Earthglide =/= Burrow. not sure where you got that idea from? The earth is still a physical barrier to something that burrows, but not for something that earthglides.It does not equal burrow, but that does not mean it has extra abilities beyond burrow either.
How is something supposed to fight(not run away from) an earth elemental under you interpretation at levels 7th, and earlier?
They max out at CR 11 so it makes sense that if they can ignore the ground as a barrier Paizo had some idea of how to defeat them.
You don't fight it on something it can earth glide through. This doesn't really have any bearing on how the ability works, its just an argument for upping it's CR.
EDIT: it is also an argument for the GM governing when to use the tactic, maybe lesser elementals just aren't smart enough? I can't think of any reason for an earth elemental to WANT to come out of the earth, its their natural habitat. When was the last time you caught a wind elemental digging a tunnel or a water elemental flying? Or an earth elemental swimming? why should they be any less averse to exposing themselves in open air?
Furthermore, and this has been brought up in other earthglide threads, if an earth elemental cannot attack creatures while earth gliding then the plane of earth must be a very peaceful place indeed