[Spoilers] The Sanos Abduction: Character Rebuild?

[GhostwheelX]

I've just picked up Riddywipple with the Improved Familiar feat, having gotten the option through the boon located in The Sanos Abduction.

My question then, is Riddywipple a standard faerie dragon? If so, can I retrain/rebuild his spells/feats? If not, can I choose spells and feats that match my character better?

[IronHelixx]

I think you treat it as a generic faerie dragon - normal improved familiar rules would apply in that case. There was a post on it somewhere... I think it was a pre/post Animal Archive/Familiar Folio thing... will see if I can find the post.

[GhostwheelX]

Right--the thing is, that to some extent familiars are able to change their feats. Otherwise, there would be no way for them to take familiar-only feats, like Critical Conduit for example.

I seem to recall somewhere that you can change any feat that your familiar has during downtime by having them "learn" from any other familiar that has the feat you are changing to. Did I imagine that? Or is that written somewhere? And would a faerie dragon be able to change one or more of their feats in this way?

[Ascalaphus]

I believe John Compton (or maybe Mike Brock) at some point indicated that Riddywipple is Riddywipple - you can't get a retrained version.

A whole while later John Compton floated a proposed rule for retraining pets, although that was never truly put into practice.

[IronHelixx]

Related Post: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pk4w?Chronicle-Sheet-Clarification-Spoilers#1

There was another post on the topic by the Paizo peeps somewhere...

[andreww]

GhostwheelX wrote:

Right--the thing is, that to some extent familiars are able to change their feats. Otherwise, there would be no way for them to take familiar-only feats, like Critical Conduit for example.

I notice that you conveniently leave out the section in the chapter which specifies that it is specifically for familiars and can be taken in place of one of their regular feats. This doesn't open it up as a general rule that familiars can retrain feats.

For reference animal archive says this:

Quote:

This section presents new feats for animal companions and familiars, as well as for PCs that make use of these animals. Some feats might be available to other creatures that meet the rerequisites. Feats that are meant for familiars can be switched out for a familiar’s default feats (as listed in the familiar’s statistics) if the familiar meets the prerequisites. Such feat replacements must be made when the PC first acquires a new familiar, and—like all new feats from supplemental sources—the new feats should be approved by the GM before being integrated into play.

[GhostwheelX]

Like I said, been forever since I read it. So the only feats that can be replaced are those meant for familiars only?

So Riddywipple could take, say, Critical Conduit, Spell Sponge, and Familiar Focus instead of his normal feats? But no others? Would that be correct?

[andreww]

An improved familiar could do so. I believe with Riddywhipple you get the Riddywhipple from the adventure with no changes.

Also, you may want to spoiler the boon information in your original post as it is generally considered poor form to reveal chronicle boon information on the forums.

[GhostwheelX]

andreww wrote:

An improved familiar could do so. I believe with Riddywhipple you get the Riddywhipple from the adventure with no changes.

Riddywipple in the adventure has no statblock, and is simply labeled a "Male Faerie Dragon" (and is taken as an Improved Familiar, using the feat). So would the above be correct, or am I misunderstanding?

andreww wrote:

Also, you may want to spoiler the boon information in your original post as it is generally considered poor form to reveal chronicle boon information on the forums.

I was informed of this a little while ago, but alas, too long had passed since I had posted and I was unable to edit. If any mods notice this, please do so.

[Tamec]

As the entry in the bestiary 3 (where the scenario points the GM) indicates, Faerie dragons come with acrobatics and dodge. Those are the only feat choices for Riddywipple because his stat block is on page 91 of the bestiary 3.

[GhostwheelX]

On the other hand, all other animals that become familiars also have "default" feats that they have and are the only feat choices. Yet other feats are out there, that are familiar-only, meaning that familiars have to change to those feats somehow. Can Riddywipple change his feats for those?

[Tamec]

In the Animal Archive it states that it's "GM Discretion" so for a home game you GM might allow you to swap out those feats. In PFS "GM Discretion" is John and Tonya and everyone that had their jobs before them like Mike Moreland in the above link. It's been 4 years since this initially came up and the ruling hasn't changed since then. You get Riddyripple and have to RAW his stats from the Bestiary 3. Other familiars are in the same boat. Familiar feats are virtually banned but there are ways to get additional feats for some (ok one that I know) and that is to spend gold on additional HD for a homunculus.

[claudekennilol]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I believe John Compton (or maybe Mike Brock) at some point indicated that Riddywipple is Riddywipple - you can't get a retrained version.

I believe it was Mike talking about what happens if Riddywhipple dies--regarding whether or not you can just use the boon to get another one. But I think that answer would apply here, as well.

Quote:

A whole while later John Compton floated a proposed rule for retraining pets, although that was never truly put into practice.

John Compton wrote:

FLite wrote:

Positives: Several times I have had new players come to me and say (variations on) "I took Armor proficiency on my AC, and I just found out that I don't need it if the barding their wearing has a 0 ACP. Did I just waste a feat? Can I get it back?" So far, I have just been telling them "Well, wait till something kills your AC, or dismiss them and get a new one and you have to retrain it's tricks but yes, in the mean time, you wasted a feat."

So far, Summoners and Spiritualists are rare enough out here, and played mostly by some of the more rules crunchy players, but it would really suck if someone took a feat on their Eidolon and then found out it didn't work and was a wasted feat and now they can't get rid of it.

Negatives: Currently familiars can only replace their starting feat with a very specific list of familiar specific feats. Opening it up to all the feats could possibly lead to some very broken builds.

I see where that would be an issue with eidolons and phantoms in particular. I can also see how this could be problematic for familiars.

Tentative Solution: A PC can use Prestige Points for retraining a creature granted by her class feature at the same cost as if she were the one retraining. A PC can only retrain options that she was able to choose in the first place. For example, retraining an eidolon's feat or ability score bonus is permissible because the summoner can choose the eidolon's feats, whereas retraining a familiar's feat is not permissible because the wizard was never able to choose its feat in the first place.

Seem about right?

I'll just quote myself on the response. But long story short, because it was posted it's official.

claudekennilol wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Was it ever confirmed that it was an official fix? All I see is the "tentative" solution linked above.

That's what I thought at first but then I actually went and looked up "tentative". It doesn't mean "proposed" it means "this is actually it but I do so hesitantly and reserve the right to reverse it." That's me paraphrasing, obviously, but until John (or Tonya or whomever) says otherwise that's the rule.

[GhostwheelX]

Does that mean that you can't change Riddywipple's feats, but you could change his spells? (Unless you took Riddywipple as a Familiar Bond/Eldritch Heritage or somesuch for a non-caster?)

[Disk Elemental]

You cannot retrain spells, because you don't get to choose familiar spells in PFS

[GhostwheelX]

Ah, gotcha.

[Ascalaphus]

Riddywipple's spells look lackluster at first, but they're not so bad in practice. Use illusions that people won't question (Silent Image of a ninja moving into sneak attack position) before they waste time and resources against them. Use Grease to free people from Black Tentacles.

[Fromper]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Riddywipple's spells look lackluster at first, but they're not so bad in practice. Use illusions that people won't question (Silent Image of a ninja moving into sneak attack position) before they waste time and resources against them. Use Grease to free people from Black Tentacles.

More importantly, he's a sorcerer, so hand him wands and scrolls of any wizard/sorc spell. No UMD necessary, unlike other familiars.

Glitterdust is an obvious choice. And 1d4+1 damage may not be much at that level, but that wand of Magic Missile is still more consistent damage than you'll get out of most familiars.

[GhostwheelX]

It's no problem. I just wanted to know what was and wasn't allowed under PFS.