Can the white-haired witches also p.e. pin a foe?

[rabbi82]

Hi all,

my GM and I discussed the following question but didn't come to any solution:

The white-haired witchs hair can grapple a foe, without any risk for the witch getting grappled herself.

Can the witchs hair also take further "grapple actions", for example pin the foe during the next round.

And if yes, would this be a swift or a standard action?

If yes: Would the witch get the grapple condition then?

Regards

R

[Bob Bob Bob]

It's just a grapple. Same as any other. The witch doesn't gain the grappled condition, but otherwise it's a normal grapple. It's a standard action to maintain the grapple every round, if you don't they escape. If you maintain the grapple you can also choose any of the standard grapple options (move, damage, pin, etc.). The grappled can also make a grapple check to reverse the grapple, but I think the witch still wouldn't gain the grappled condition.

Why would the witch gain the grappled condition if they didn't have it before? Maintaining the grapple doesn't give you the grappled condition, initiating it does.

Now, a weird place in the rules is that pinning the opponent makes you lose your Dex to AC. This is not a condition, just an additional rule in the Pin entry. It seems to imply it's related to the grappled condition, but as-is a White-haired Witch that pins someone with their hair would lose their Dex to AC.

[rabbi82]

Thank you for your answer and your help Bob.

>>>It seems to imply it's related to the grappled condition, but as-is a White-haired Witch that pins someone with their hair would lose their Dex to AC.<<<

I am wondering, if this the common understanding? How do others see this?

[Buri Reborn]

That the witch using hair to grapple is allowed to not be grappled isn't all that weird. The same can be accomplished with a -20 on the CMB check. So, the rules should be consistent with the exception the witch doesn't need to take that -20. It follows, then, the rest of the rules are normal since the "I'm not grappled" path is part of the core assumption and not something new introduced with the witch class. Thus, yes, you still lose dex to AC. At the same time, you're still not grappled.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

I don't see why not. Pinning a foe is one of the basic options allotted during a grapple. You could even go a step further, and basically "tie up" the foe with your hair (though, I wonder if you can cut your hair off and it will magically regrow, but that falls into GM FIAT territory).

Of course, as others say, if you pin the foe, you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. However, here's the text:

Pin wrote:

Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

The way I see it, the bolded part suggests that it further modifies the grappled condition you possess; if you don't have the condition, it's trying to modify something that you just don't have, meaning you can still maintain your Dexterity Bonus.

It is merely a Devil's Advocate argument, suggesting that it certainly is possible to not lose your Dexterity. In my opinion, I'd rule you're still denied your Dexterity Bonus to AC (and by relation, Dodge Bonuses and other Dexterity-reliant AC benefits), because you're focusing on keeping a target from moving or committing any sort of physical action (save for breaking free).

It usually takes a specific type of class feature, such as the Unarmed Fighter's Clever Wrestler class feature, to remove the penalties from Grappling and Pinning, so I don't think the Witch should so easily negate them with something like her White Hair ability. It's plenty powerful enough if you factor in some "bad touch" spells.

[Buri Reborn]

Interesting. I read it to mean that you're not pinned. Since grappling normally grapples yourself, I could easily see the extension that pinning someone also "pins" you. That text is simply to say that's not the case but still imposes a penalty to represent what it takes to both pin your opponent and to offset the harsh penalties that being pinned brings letting you escape a little bit more easily had that text not been there.