Pitfalls of Expanding the Magus Spell List.


Homebrew and House Rules


I like the Magus thematically, but I can't help but notice that a solid Eldritch Knight build is WAY better than the optimal Magus build that I keep running into.

The downside to the Eldritch Knight is that, for the most part, the magic aspect and the melee aspect are separate. The only time spells combine with magic is with the Eldritch Knight capstone ability.

What are the possible pitfalls of allowing a Magus to select any spell from the Wizard Spell list, as opposed to just the Magus List? This would effectively replace Greater Spell Access, as it becomes mostly redundant. I am also okay with losing medium/heavy armor.

My reasoning as to why I think it's okay:

Magus 20:
BAB: 15
Max Spell Level: 6

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Fighter 4
BAB 17
Max Spell Level: 7

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard 4
BAB: 15
Max Spell Level: 9

I feel like the Magus class abilities don't quite cover this discrepancy, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I'm not following your reasoning here. A 20th level magus has a lot more powerful abilities than a 20th level fighter/wizard/eldritch knight. Also, the wizard has the most powerful spell list in the game and you want to give the whole list for free to a class that's already powerful as is? A class that already has ways to poach spells from the wizard spell list?

I've played several magi from level 1 to 15. I'm running a campaign with a 15th level magi. I think their spell list is fine. The only thing I'd change is maybe add more 5th and 6th level spells. The spell selection feels really limited on those levels, which isn't remedied until 19th level with greater spell access.


In case I wasn't clear, I'm not giving the Magus a full casting progression. I'm still capping it at 6th level spells and I would remove greater spell access.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

thflame wrote:
In case I wasn't clear, I'm not giving the Magus a full casting progression. I'm still capping it at 6th level spells and I would remove greater spell access.

You're perfectly clear on that point. It's your reasoning that doesn't make much sense to me. The magus has significantly more powerful class features than an eldritch knight and can cast in armor. Action economy benefits concerning spells are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. Even that aside, the magus is a powerful class. It makes little sense to me to buff them by granting them the most powerful spell list in the game, especially when the class has ways to expand its spell list if the player is willing use up a magus arcana or a feat. Heck, the magus gets spells that the wizard doesn't, so a magus also getting all wizard spells means he ends up with a spell list better than the most powerful spellcaster in the game.


thflame wrote:

I like the Magus thematically, but I can't help but notice that a solid Eldritch Knight build is WAY better than the optimal Magus build that I keep running into.

The downside to the Eldritch Knight is that, for the most part, the magic aspect and the melee aspect are separate. The only time spells combine with magic is with the Eldritch Knight capstone ability.

What are the possible pitfalls of allowing a Magus to select any spell from the Wizard Spell list, as opposed to just the Magus List? This would effectively replace Greater Spell Access, as it becomes mostly redundant. I am also okay with losing medium/heavy armor.

My reasoning as to why I think it's okay:

Magus 20:
BAB: 15
Max Spell Level: 6

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Fighter 4
BAB 17
Max Spell Level: 7

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard 4
BAB: 15
Max Spell Level: 9

I feel like the Magus class abilities don't quite cover this discrepancy, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

You're missing a lot. You're missing on the fact that the Magus seamlessly combines magic and melee where the Eldritch Knight is just someone who alternates between fighter and wizard. The Magus can do major damage with spell crits, and has major nova capability if they're not bladebound with spellstoring ON top of spellstrike.

On the other hand, a bladebound magus has a sentient blade that can be tuned for specific combats as well as sparing them the expense of weapon enchantment.

The magus is a caster built specifically for war. Giving them broad spell access not only takes away the Eldritch Knight's only significant feature, it lessens the magus distinctive flavor.


Could someone give me a list of Magus spells that work with Spellstrike? According to my research, it's around 10, which is kinda low for someone who is supposed to smack people with a magic'd sword.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

thflame wrote:

Could someone give me a list of Magus spells that work with Spellstrike? According to my research, it's around 10, which is kinda low for someone who is supposed to smack people with a magic'd sword.

How's that relevant?

Regardless, 10 is quite a lot since spellstrike is such a powerful class feature that you only need a couple of good spells to become a powerhouse with it.

Liberty's Edge

thflame wrote:

Could someone give me a list of Magus spells that work with Spellstrike? According to my research, it's around 10, which is kinda low for someone who is supposed to smack people with a magic'd sword.

There's also the Eldritch Archer archetype, which opens up some more choices :)


Don't forget the Close Range arcana, which lets you use Spellstrike with those fancy rays and such.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
thflame wrote:

Could someone give me a list of Magus spells that work with Spellstrike? According to my research, it's around 10, which is kinda low for someone who is supposed to smack people with a magic'd sword.

Here a quick list of Magus spells that can be used with spell strike.

Spoiler:
[CR] means that the spell requires the Close Range arcana to be used with Spellstrike

0 level spells
- Acid Splash [CR]
- Arcane Mark (useful to tag a fleeing creature)
- Disrupt Undead [CR]
- Light (useful to tag a creature)
- Ray of Frost [CR]

1st level spells
- Chill Touch
- Corrosive Touch
- Emblazon Crest (marginally useful to snuff out the identity of a masked opponent)
- Frostbite
- Mudball [CR]
- Ray of Enfeeblement [CR]
- Snowball [CR]
- Shocking Grasp

2nd level spells
- Acid Arrow [CR]
- Aristocrat's Nightmare (maginally useful)
- Blood Blaze
- Frigid Touch
- Molten Orb [CR]
- Scorching Ray [CR]

3rd level spells
- Force Punch
- Ray of Exhaustion [CR]
- Shining Cord [CR]
- Trial of Fire and Acid
- Vampiric Touch

4th level spells
- Arcana Theft
- Forceful Strike

5th level spells
- Blood Boil
- Corrosive Consumption
- Mask From Divination (marginally useful for quick kidnapping and similar circumstances)

6th level spells
- Contagious Flame [CR]
- Disintegrate [CR]

In addition to Close Range, there is two other notable arcana that can expend the magus's abilities :
- Spell Blending allows the magus to add wizard spells to his spell list
- Broad Study arcana the magus to use spellstrike and spell combat with spells from his other spellcasting classes.

The Magus doesn't really need a broader spell list.


As I understand it, the difference between the Eldritch Knight and the Magus is this:

Eldritch Knights have one of the broadest ranges of expertise in the game, including the versatile powers of the wizard, and the direct simplicity of the fighter, but the price of being able to do everything is that the two roles don't combine well, so their tactics are about compromise and they're not as good at either field as the pure base classes they used as stepping stones to qualify.

Maguses (Magi?) look similar if you draw them, but they're the exact opposite. They DON'T have two different fields of expertise. Instead, they are specialists whose very limited combat and spellcasting will not work if they aren't used together. The trade-off is that a Magus CAN use them together, which is extraordinarily powerful.

Giving the Magus the kind of breadth that an eldritch knight has is fine, but if you're going to do it you have to make him pay, because he'll combine that breadth with his other abilities and shove it down a monster's throat on the end of his sword.


My only complaint with the Magus is that there really aren't that many touch spells on their spell list to use with Spellstrike.

Sure, the ones that are there are effective (especially with the ubiquitous meta-magic'd Shocking Grasp), but the variety is lacking. Makes it kind of one-note.


@Aralicia Thanks for the list.

@Saldiven I agree. It feels like to me that two Magi of the same level will have VERY similar spell lists and even more similar prepared spell lists.

@Mortuum While I agree with you partially, at the end of the day, they are all prepared arcane casters who learn spells through research, practice, or discovery.

What keeps a level 7 Magus from researching Lightning Bolt just as easily as a level 5 Wizard? He either has to wait until level 19 (when he get's a boat load all at once) or he has to spend EXTRA effort devoting his Magus research to learning it.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Pitfalls of Expanding the Magus Spell List. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules
Fighter Rechained