Does altar self grant rend damage or bleed damage?

[GodofTrek]

I am playing a (draconic)sorcerer and just hit level 4. I am looking at the 'Alter Self' spell. Glancing through the small and medium humanoids.

Gnoll,Pygmy (small) lists 'Bite 1d3 plus 1 bleed' Do I gain the bleed damage as well as part of the natural attack?

Also, the 'Lava Child' grants a rend special attack. Does this count as a natural attack, or an EX ability?

Finally, are Hybrid-Form lycans legal? They are mostly Medium Humanoid (Human, Shapechanger) so I assume yes.

[Deighton Thrane]

When using polymorph effects you gain the natural attacks of the granted form as well as the land speed, everything else is dependant on the spell. So you would gain neither the bleed effect, or the rend attack with alter self because it doesn't list these as abilities you gain.

Also, lycans are not valid options for polymorph effects. You cannot choose a creature with a template when using polymorph spells, and lycanthropes are templated creatures. You also may not use a young tiger or giant badger for example.

[GodofTrek]

Deighton Thrane wrote:

When using polymorph effects you gain the natural attacks of the granted form as well as the land speed, everything else is dependant on the spell. So you would gain neither the bleed effect, or the rend attack with alter self because it doesn't list these as abilities you gain.

So if polymorphed into say, a sewer troll, which has the claw attacks listed as 10ft reach, you would not gain the additional reach either then?

[TheMask]

Actually you would gain the reach, according to this guideand this

[James Risner]

Reach isn't a listed Ex/Su/Sp ability (in the monster write up or in monster abilities), so you should gain it.

Bleed isn't listed in Gnoll,Pygmy writeup but it is listed in monster abilities. So you don't get it unless the polymorph spell says you do.

[swoosh]

Deighton Thrane wrote:

When using polymorph effects you gain the natural attacks of the granted form as well as the land speed, everything else is dependant on the spell. So you would gain neither the bleed effect, or the rend attack with alter self because it doesn't list these as abilities you gain.

You do gain the bleed, because the bleed is a component of the natural attack, rather than separate ability.

[James Risner]

swoosh wrote:

You do gain the bleed, because the bleed is a component of the natural attack, rather than separate ability.

Then why don't you gain Poison in the same way as a component of a natural arrack?

[Drejk]

swoosh wrote:

Deighton Thrane wrote:

When using polymorph effects you gain the natural attacks of the granted form as well as the land speed, everything else is dependant on the spell. So you would gain neither the bleed effect, or the rend attack with alter self because it doesn't list these as abilities you gain.

You do gain the bleed, because the bleed is a component of the natural attack, rather than separate ability.

No it's not. It is a separate ability that has its own entry in universal monster rules, with natural attack being the method of delivery, just like in case of disease, poison, some forms of energy drain and other special attacks.