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Can the ectoplasmic spell metamagic feat + fabricate alter an existing stone wall into a wall that is impassible to incorporeal creatures for the volume of the wall equal to the volume of the fabricate spell?
I think so. Basically, either the Wall of Stone spell can be metamagic'd to be Ectoplasmic, or the result of the Fabricate would do the same if it was also metamagic'd, since Ectoplasmic Spell just says the effects of the spell have full effect against incorporeal creatures.
Then again...fabricate is instantaneous and isn't specifically meant to affect creatures (imagine fabricating weapons with innate ghost-touch! Ludicrous). This might mean that immediately after the fabricate is finished, its just a wall with no specific protection from both ethereal and incorporeal creatures. The wall of stone might be different, despite also being instantaneous, because it is creating something from nothing rather than changing something into something else.
This is an intriguing question, but I might rule it as the latter. If you want your dungeon walls or even dungeon traps ethereal-proofed and ghost-proof, you might have to have a means of conjuring the walls and possible traps from nothing rather than using what you have.
The effect of the spell is it creates a wall. The way that wall interacts with incorporeals isn't adjudicated by the spell - it's normal matter. If it were permanent duration I might feel differently, but there's no direct interaction between the spell and the creature, so ectoplasmic has no effect.
Edit: I got in my head that we were talking about wall of stone. You seem to have translated that I would say the same for fabricate for the same reasons, which is correct.
The effect of the spell is it creates a wall. The way that wall interacts with incorporeals isn't adjudicated by the spell - it's normal matter. If it were permanent duration I might feel differently, but there's no direct interaction between the spell and the creature, so ectoplasmic has no effect.
Fabricate doesn't "create a wall", it produces something from another thing.
A thing being a product of itself (X * 1 = X), I was thinking that the metamagic feat would alter the end product and make it's effect apply to incorporeal creatures.
It's instantaneous duration means that the end product is not dispellable.
The effect, really, is no different than a wall of stone + ectoplasmic spell feat -- other than the differences between wall of stone and fabricate, naturally.
Then again...fabricate is instantaneous and isn't specifically meant to affect creatures (imagine fabricating weapons with innate ghost-touch! Ludicrous).
Actually, I'm not so sure that this idea is ludicrous. It seems pretty plausible actually.
The regular ghost touch enchant can be used for items that weren't constructed with fabricate and ectoplasmic spell, and this spell/feat combo can be used to create ghost touch items that are "non-magical".
Fabricate- turn materials into finished objects. Has no effect on creatures.
Ectoplasmic- spell has full effect on incorporeal/ethereal creatures, which is "none, creatures can't be transmuted by this".
Fabricate- turn materials into finished objects. Has no effect on creatures.
Ectoplasmic- spell has full effect on incorporeal/ethereal creatures, which is "none, creatures can't be transmuted by this".
So, by this you are stating that only spells that affect creatures can be modified by the ectoplasmic spell metamagic feat?
So, by this you are stating that only spells that affect creatures can be modified by the ectoplasmic spell metamagic feat?Fabricate- turn materials into finished objects. Has no effect on creatures.
Ectoplasmic- spell has full effect on incorporeal/ethereal creatures, which is "none, creatures can't be transmuted by this".
It would be more helpful if you actually quoted the rules text.
But for the record, they are correct; Ectoplasmic Spell doesn't let you Fabricate something incorporeal/ethereal. Here's why:
...Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text...
...You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
An ectoplasmic spell has full effect against incorporeal or ethereal creatures.
Basically, the Fabricate spell allows you to transform one set of material (which you must provide as a material component for the spell) and turn it into a product made out of said material. The Target, as outlined by the spell, is the material, which can be as much as 10 cubic feet per caster level.
Ectoplasmic Spell allows the effects of the spell to fully apply to incorporeal/ethereal creatures. You might have had a point, except you're not targeting a creature with the spell (and you can't, as it specifically says so), you're targeting materials, which you're then trying to apply to the creature, which won't work because the spell is already finished, and thus is the product.
You couldn't even use the spell to affect the ethereal/incorporeal plane(s), because the Metamagic only applies for creatures, not objects or other such.
It's a nice try, but seriously, if you want to use a wall or something similar to stop an Incorporeal, that's what Wall of Force is for.
Darksol,
I understand your reasoning, let me first say that.
However, let me put forth a different line of reasoning, as I believe that you and those that agree with you might be stretching things a bit (and in the same vein, I might be as well):
The metamagic ectoplasmic spell modifies the spell cast so that it affects incorporeal creatures.
Benefit: An ectoplasmic spell has full effect against incorporeal or ethereal creatures.
Effect stone wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level (S)
How does a wall or other inanimate object affect a creature? By it's mere existence, if that existence cannot be ignored. A wall is a barrier that must be walked around, or otherwise dealt with if it is an impediment to our desires. The wall affects you by you having to interacting with it.
Now, Nothing in the ectoplasmic metamagic feat itself states that you are required to target creatures. Nor does it expressly restrict the metamagic feat from being used on just spells that target creatures. This is an interpretation/implementation of the phrase "spell has full effect on incorporeal/ethereal creatures"
What the feat does is make the spell effect *real* (or have the same effect upon) the incorporeal creature in question, as if it were corporeal, if it could otherwise ignore the spell due to it's incorporeal nature.
Examples:
An ectoplasmic wall of stone of any thickness less than 10' would prevent the incorporeal creature from being able to ignore it in the same way that a corporeal creature cannot ignore a wall of the same size.
The wall affects the incorporeal the same way it does a corporeal. A "ghost touch wall" so to speak.
If you use ectoplasmic metamagic feat on a summoned sword (say storm of blades), those summoned blades would affect the incorporeal the same way it does a corporeal. Whereas a standard storm of blades spell could be ignored due to the non-magical nature of the summoned blades (instantaneous conjuration is even able to make it through an anti-magic field).
Now, when it comes to fabricate. Fabricate makes one thing into another. But in this case the end goal is the same object, or perhaps a "masterwork" version of the same object, except now it is *real* to incorporeal creatures by virtue of the ectoplasmic feat being used with Fabricate.
As an aside, back in Old AD&D, there were often mundane items that had the effect of being barriers for incorporeal/ethereal creatures while being fully corporeal (plants, gorgon's blood in mortar, etc).
I'm finding these things missing in the current version of pathfinder. I think this (using fabricate + ectoplasmic spell metamagic) as returning those things, in principle, back to the game.
Since the ectoplasmic spell feat's text is ambiguous in it's application, I'm going to be opening up a FAQ request. Please clicky and let's get a ruling from the devs. This should be a simple one.
But you're targeting the material with the spell, and the spell affects the material fully, assuming the material in question is somehow incorporeal. It doesn't automatically make the material some sort of special "I can affect ghosts indefinitely now!" substance.
That line of reasoning would allow me to make Ectoplasmic Mithril Longswords that deal full damage to both Incorporeal and Corporeal creatures. You're giving the Ghost Touch property without actually applying the Ghost Touch property in that case, and quite frankly that's obviously not intended.
I understand the line of reasoning you were going for, and to be honest, the mechanics don't point that way, and even if they did, it leads to some very bonkers mechanics.
I would have to say no to the use of fabricate, simply because it only transforms materials, it doesn't change them.
That being said, I think by RAW wall of stone would work, only because if it didn't work then ectoplasmic spell wouldn't work with any other conjuration spell.
Take for example the spell : Burst of Nettles. Its conjuration, its instantaneous, doesn't target a creature (it targets an area), and it summons material that effects opponents. I would have a hard time arguing that if I cast this spell with ectoplasmic meta-magic that it wouldn't affect an incorporeal creature.
You could apply the same argument to wall of stone. Its conjuration, its instantaneous, it doesn't target a creature, and it summons material that affects opponents. For the same reason then I think you could assume that it would function similarly.
My first inclination, probably, would be to not allow this, simply because it duplicates a higher level effect at a lower level with a permanent duration.
However, after more thought, I don't really see any game breaking issues with this, so I would give it the ok.
I do have to figure out now if an ectoplasmic baleful polymorph can affect an incorporeal creature or if the immunity still overrides the polymorph effect. If it does work, I suppose they'd lose incorporeality and just be a normal animal. Seems like this needs more clarification.
I think it would depend on the creature. If it was an undead then I would say that it wouldn't work.
Ectoplasmic says that "An ectoplasmic spell has full effect against incorporeal or ethereal creatures." In this case it is referring to the fact that spells are normally only 50% effective (spells that are only saves miss, and damage spells do half), with ectoplasmic this goes to 100%. This is even backed up by the flavor text "Your spells breach the gulf between dimensions, sending ghostly emanations into the ether".
In the case of baleful polymorph the full effect of the spell is nothing, because the creature is immune due to undead traits, not incorporeal.