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Explore, Report, Cooperate, these are the three tenets of the Pathfinder Society. I have been thinking, do scenarios that require everyone to succeed on certain skill checks undermine the tenet of Cooperate? Do you think that it reinforces the idea that you can not rely on your fellow Pathfinders to help cover your weaknesses? Does it help cultivate a mindset that every good Pathfinder should be as self reliant as possible? What are your thoughts?
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There are some legitimate situations where just having one person succeed isn't enough. Sneaking past the guards, being interviewed by someone who is judging you, etc.
While "Explore, Report, Cooperate," are the tenants of the Society as a whole, the subset made up of PCs also has the added one of "improvise". You might be in a team with 6 melee types, 6 face types, or at least not have a key role filled. I'd like to think that Venture-Captains aren't really so stupid or disengaged that they think that's a good idea - it's a result of the meta-issue of players signing up for scenarios with whatever PC they feel like playing. "Real" Venture-Captains would probably assign Pathfinders to teams based on skill sets - but that would take away player free will.
IMO, every Pathfinder needs to have some back-up capability to handle everything, because of this issue. You can't count on someone else having Disable Device or Knowledge (X) for you.
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IMO, every Pathfinder needs to have some back-up capability to handle everything, because of this issue. You can't count on someone else having Disable Device or Knowledge (X) for you.
Uh, how do you propose we do that?
I play a lot of skill rich casters with long lists of scrolls and gear. FAR more prepared and versatile than most. But I am still a long way from bring able to handle everything.
And unless you're proposing we outlaw fighters, paladins, etc there are a lot of characters who are inherently quite limited in what they can handle
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IMO, every Pathfinder needs to have some back-up capability to handle everything, because of this issue. You can't count on someone else having Disable Device or Knowledge (X) for you.Uh, how do you propose we do that?
Well, I did say "in my opinion", so I'm not telling you to do anything, but if asked for advice, the usual method is by putting at least 1 skill rank into those important trained-only skills (like Disable Device and Knowledge skills)... Then you can at least roll if no one else has it. A Take 20 on Disable Device at first level is surprisingly effective.
... But I am still a long way from bring able to handle everything. (...)
Of course you can't do everything - it's an ideal as opposed to a realistic goal. And yes, you are right: some classes are better equipped to be well-rounded Pathfinders right out of the box, while others have to work at it a bit harder.
In my experience, though, many fighters put all of their resources into overkill. Do you need +12 to hit at first level? Drop your Strength a point and throw the 3-4 points into Intelligence to double your skill ranks/level. Use your traits to gain class skills for the +3, instead of another +1 to hit in some specific situation. The Lore Warden archetype is built for this (although it gives up heavy armor). There are lots of ways for fighters to be well-rounded Pathfinders, they just need to *want* to. And that's the personal choice that's up to you.
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Of course you can't do everything - it's an ideal as opposed to a realistic goal. And yes, you are right: some classes are better equipped to be well-rounded Pathfinders right out of the box, while others have to work at it a bit harder.
In my experience, though, many fighters put all of their resources into overkill. Do you need +12 to hit at first level? Drop your Strength a point and throw the 3-4 points into Intelligence to double your skill ranks/level. Use your traits to gain class skills for the +3, instead of another +1 to hit in some specific situation. The Lore Warden archetype is built for this (although it gives up heavy armor). There are lots of ways for fighters to be well-rounded Pathfinders, they just need to *want* to. And that's the personal choice that's up to you.
I've looked at Lore Warden repeatedly but it just seems to be lacking pretty much any reason to go 'fighter' in the first place. It 'feels' like it trades away far too much to gain far too little.
Seriously, after a certain point, just trying to tough out a level or two of bard seems easier?
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I've looked at Lore Warden repeatedly but it just seems to be lacking pretty much any reason to go 'fighter' in the first place. It 'feels' like it trades away far too much to gain far too little.
Seriously, after a certain point, just trying to tough out a level or two of bard seems easier?
I find this surprising, a +2 to CMB checks at 3rd, plus an additional +2 at 7, 11, and 15 makes them excellent maneuver based combatants. You can even pick up heavier armor proficiency's again through feats, you just aren't any better than a paladin or cleric at wearing it. And you don't trade away weapon training, so you can still pick up versatile training. Even in regular PFS play, you can have effectively 8 ranks per level +int mod skill ranks. You're more restricted in what skills you can take, but most of the skill groups you have to pick from are pretty good. You can build an incredible polearm using trip build with max ranks in bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive, plus two more ranks/level in int based skills, and 2+int in any skills.
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I find this surprising, a +2 to CMB checks at 3rd, plus an additional +2 at 7, 11,and 15makes them excellent maneuver based combatants. You can even pick up heavier armor proficiencies again through feats, you just aren't any better than a paladin or cleric at wearing it. And you don't trade away weapon training, so you can still pick up versatile training. Even in regular PFS play, you can have effectively 8 ranks per level +int mod skill ranks. You're more restricted in what skills you can take, but most of the skill groups you have to pick from are pretty good. You can build an incredible polearm using trip build with max ranks in bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive, plus two more ranks/level in int based skills, and 2+int in any skills.
I'm only seeing 2 additional ranks per level in INT-based skills. Sure, they're all class skills, but with only 4 skill points, that makes the problem worse by having a *lot* of options to spend on and few points to spend.
I don't count FCB in my calculations for skill points, nor do I count human bonus because I rarely play humans.
In addition, having a fighter that can only use light armor to begin with feels rather... weak.
I may be having a Gross Conceptual Error here, but I'm not seeing how this is any sort of real improvement over a fighter with the heavier armor traded away for a couple of skill points per level?
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The skill points are just a bonus. The real fighter abilities are the ability to study an opponent for +2 to attack and damage that also applies to CMB checks and stacks with weapon training, added to the eventual +6 to CMB checks that also stack, along with combat expertise as a bonus feat. The extra 2 skill points are just to enable the knowledge checks associated with +2 attack and damage ability, but are also useful outside of combat.
So you take that chassis, add in advanced weapon training for versatile training, spending 2 feats (or 1 feat and 1 class feature) to gain a number of skill ranks equal to your BAB in 4 skills , also making them count as class skills for you. It's a build that's achievable by any race that turns the fighter into one of the most skilled characters at the table. Effectively 8+int mod skill ranks a level, though you're limited in what skills you can choose for all but 2+int mod. Not to say that there aren't some really good skills to choose from.
So if +8 to CMB isn't enough to convince you, the possibility of making the fighter the most skilled player at the table definitely should. Also if light armor seams weak, just build an archer out of the archetype. You can easily have 18 dex and chain shirt at first level for 18 AC, or 19 if you're small. Nothing weak about that.
But this is kind of a derail from what the OP was originally asking.
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I like skill checks where everybody participates, even if they aren't particularly good at it. Just like everybody gets a turn in combat, sometimes you're only action is to run from trouble, or to limp over and aid another.
Out of 3 characters of mine with fighter levels, 2 of them use Lore Warden.
The first is my Emerald Spire character and uses the full trip line of feats. The lore warden skill points have made his knowledge relevant, his trip high enough to consistently using dazing assault, and helped alleviate the combat expertise feat tax
Male human (Kellid) fighter (lore warden) 12 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide)
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 124 (12d10+48)
Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +9 (+2 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +4 horsechopper +26/+21/+16 (1d10+14/19-20/×3) or
. . chakram +15/+10/+5 (1d8+4) or
. . cold iron heavy pick +16/+11/+6 (1d6+4/×4) or
. . cold iron longsword +16/+11/+6 (1d8+4/19-20) or
. . cold iron warhammer +16/+11/+6 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . spiked gauntlet +16/+11/+6 (1d4+4)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (pole arms +4, versatile training)
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Statistics
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Str 19, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +22 (+33 trip); CMD 37 (41 vs. disarm, 41 vs. sunder, 39 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dazing Assault[APG], Dodge, Fury’s Fall, Greater Trip, Greater Weapon Focus (horsechopper), Improved Critical (horsechopper), Improved Trip, Lunge, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (horsechopper), Whirlwind Attack
Traits heirloom weapon (maneuver), reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15, Appraise +6, Climb +10, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (arcana) +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (engineering) +11, Knowledge (geography) +11, Knowledge (history) +11, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +10, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +6, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +9, Survival +10 (+12 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +8
Languages Aklo, Azlanti, Common, Hallit, Sphinx
SQ hair's breadth, know thy enemy
Combat Gear elemental earth belt[UE], jingasa of the fortunate soldier[UE], potion of enlarge person, wand of cure light wounds, alchemist's fire (2); Other Gear +1 mithral chain shirt, +4 horsechopper[ARG], chakram[APG] (10), cold iron heavy pick, cold iron longsword, cold iron warhammer, spiked gauntlet, aegis of recovery[UE], cloak of resistance +4, corset of the vishkanya[ARG], cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, feather step slippers[UE], gloves of dueling[APG], wayfinder[ISWG], custom container, hemp rope (50 ft.), 70 gp
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Special Abilities
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Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dazing Assault (DC 22) -5 to all attacks and maneuvers but struck foes are dazed 1 rd (Fort neg).
Fury’s Fall When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
Greater Trip Foes you trip provoke AoO when they are knocked prone.
Hair's Breadth (Ex) Negate critical hit if Acrobatics check is higher than confirmation roll.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Know Thy Enemy (Standard Action) (Ex) Knowledge check vs. 1 foe to gain +2 to att & weapon dam for encounter.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Versatile Training (Weapon Training [Pole Arms] +4) (Ex) The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in two skills of his choice that are associated with the fighter weapon group he has chosen with this option (see below). The fighter need not be wielding an associated weapon to use thi
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Whirlwind Attack Instead of making a full attack, you attack all foes in reach.
I have another character that's a fighter 2 (lore warden), oracle of time 4. (remaining levels will be in oracle)
Here I've used the free combat expertise and other fighter feats to help me grab both butterfly sting and moonlight stalker.
In both cases the loss of heavy armor didn't bother me. I suspect that's because I don't value AC particularly highly. Sure it's king at low levels, so I end up with a lot of characters with +1 chain shirts or +1 full plate, but very few character's with armor above that, and almost no amulets of natural armor or rings of protection. I'd rather do fun stuff with my money or work on my defenses in other ways.
