I've added a number of traits and tweaked others (most of the changes are my own, a few are from things I've seen around).
Suggestions, comments, or other ideas welcome.
The formatting makes the document annoying to read.
I don't really see what you're accomplishing here. The biggest thing I see is that you greatly reduced the cost of Large, reduced the cost of advanced ability score adjustments, and changed Fast Speed to a standard choice. I strongly disagree with all of these changes, especially making Large a ridiculously low price of 3 RP.
All you done is make it easier to create overpowered Standard tier races, which was already a problem the race creation guidelines had.
I don't see anything wrong with how it's set up. It has the Trait category with sub categories, such as Standard/Advanced/Monstrous traits below it, which isn't too different than how it's laid out in the book. I've seen you complain about 'format' before when you've replied to other things, and each time there hasn't been an issue as far as I could see.
Large is not worth 7 points. The bonuses a creature gets from being large mostly cancel out except for the bonus to combat maneuver checks and CMD and the penalty to stealth checks. The stealth penalty is worth -2RP (1RP = +2 skill check bonus). Battle Hardened is worth 2RP (and I changed that after reading suggestions and explanations about that one), since that is close to the bonus large gives, it and the penalty to stealth checks balance out. Throw another 2RP onto it for the bonus to combat maneuver checks and Large is now only worth 2RP. Large doesn't automatically give Reach, so you're still looking at 10x10 reach 5ft. So pricing it at 3RP isn't ridiculous.
In fact Small should also be changed because of the bonuses it gives are worth more than 0RP, I think either 2 or 3RP would be appropriate.
The Advanced Ability Score cost was too high for what it gave. When most other things are 2RP for a +4 skill check bonus. Halve the bonus because it's a specific and it's still 2RP for a +2 bonus, which is more than you'd get even now from the ability score bonus. Not to mention that the cost does still add up fairly fast.
If you noticed (and I'm sure you didn't because it seems you didn't read any further than the advanced ability score section), Fast was made into a choice of Base Speed because I changed the original to allow for more options. Moving it from where it was in Movement to Base Speed changes nothing, doesn't break the game, and gives no reason for you to 'strongly disagree' with it.
Since it seems that you never looked past the first three sections and decided you didn't like the formatting and said 'this sucks' and then posted.
Options. That's what I was going for, more options. One of my players asked me to explain why the Weakness section was so limited in selection. After answering him, I decided to try and fix it a bit, and that spiraled into looking at the rest of it.
Since it seems that you never looked past the first three sections and decided you didn't like the formatting and said 'this sucks' and then posted.
You don't need to be rude to me. I design games, and I've been an active member of this community for years. Sometimes I come off as harsh, but I critique because I care. And if I didn't care, I never would have invested time to respond to this thread.
I don't see anything wrong with how it's set up. It has the Trait category with sub categories, such as Standard/Advanced/Monstrous traits below it, which isn't too different than how it's laid out in the book. I've seen you complain about 'format' before when you've replied to other things, and each time there hasn't been an issue as far as I could see.
It's mostly the underlining that makes it straining on the eyes. Also, it's difficult to see exactly what you actually changed unless you go through the race creation guidelines with a fine comb. It's difficult to get feedback about changes when it's hard to figure out what exactly you changed. I only know them so well because I designed a lot of races for friends, campaigns, and ongoing projects.
Large is not worth 7 points. The bonuses a creature gets from being large mostly cancel out except for the bonus to combat maneuver checks and CMD and the penalty to stealth checks. The stealth penalty is worth -2RP (1RP = +2 skill check bonus). Battle Hardened is worth 2RP (and I changed that after reading suggestions and explanations about that one), since that is close to the bonus large gives, it and the penalty to stealth checks balance out. Throw another 2RP onto it for the bonus to combat maneuver checks and Large is now only worth 2RP. Large doesn't automatically give Reach, so you're still looking at 10x10 reach 5ft. So pricing it at 3RP isn't ridiculous.
You're grossly undervaluing the benefits of Large size.
The Advanced Ability Score cost was too high for what it gave. When most other things are 2RP for a +4 skill check bonus. Halve the bonus because it's a specific and it's still 2RP for a +2 bonus, which is more than you'd get even now from the ability score bonus. Not to mention that the cost does still add up fairly fast.
The RP costs are kind of messed up when you look at skill bonuses. A +4 to a skill really should be much higher, especially if it's a valuable skill. The cost for advanced ability scores at least made some sense because it's useful and made for Advanced tier races, who have double the RP budget than a Standard race.
If you noticed (and I'm sure you didn't because it seems you didn't read any further than the advanced ability score section), Fast was made into a choice of Base Speed because I changed the original to allow for more options. Moving it from where it was in Movement to Base Speed changes nothing, doesn't break the game, and gives no reason for you to 'strongly disagree' with it.
I did notice -- that's why I brought it up. Fast is a really good trait. That's why it's an Advanced trait. Off the top of my head, none of the core, featured, or uncommon races have Fast despite a few of the uncommon races being over the top.
Options. That's what I was going for, more options.
I do like the ideas you have for weaknesses. However, most of your changes just lower RP costs (despite many options having too low of cost already) and make really powerful options more accessible for Standard tier races. All you really accomplish is raising the bar for how powerful a standard race can be. Lowering RP costs isn't really necessary for that because:
1) Race creation guidelines are largely a GM tool. Even the first paragraph of the chapter points it out. You don't really need to go through the trouble of creating a document that rearranges and adjusts racial traits when only you (the GM) will use it. Unless you let your players go wild with the rules, which is not recommended.2) Race creation guidelines are not a substitute for knowing how to design a race. Adjusting RP costs and availability doesn't change that, especially when the RP costs are already questionable and require a lot of judgement.
3) You can just let players have Advanced tier races. You don't need to raise the power ceiling of Standard tier races when you can just let players have races of a more powerful tier.
One of my players asked me to explain why the Weakness section was so limited in selection. After answering him, I decided to try and fix it a bit, and that spiraled into looking at the rest of it.
I can answer that question. There's a good game design reason why weaknesses have to be limited. Mostly because a weakness is only truly a drawback if it's relevant, which is not always the case because the game incentivizes players to choose races whose strengths are relevant and weaknesses are irrelevant. As a consequence, a game designer has to make the Weakness more crippling, which can easily make the race unfun to play. As a result, designers tend to avoid creating Weakness traits. Instead, they create weaknesses through ability score penalties or couple the weakness with a relevant perk. The android's Constructed trait is a great example of the latter.
As a result of the above factors, there's not a lot of Weaknesses to choose from.
I do totally agree with you that racial weaknesses feel like a largely unexplored design space. It's one of the reasons why I like some of the few you made.
You don't need to be rude to me. I design games, and I've been an active member of this community for years. Sometimes I come off as harsh, but I critique because I care. And if I didn't care, I never would have invested time to respond to this thread.
Honestly you came off as dismissive and completely negative, with no critiques at all. I responded in kind.
It's mostly the underlining that makes it straining on the eyes.
I don't see the problem myself, it doesn't bother me. What would you suggest to separate the entries so that each one was distinct and distinguishable from the others? I've thought of using different colors, but that hurts my eyes.
Also, it's difficult to see exactly what you actually changed unless you go through the race creation guidelines with a fine comb. It's difficult to get feedback about changes when it's hard to figure out what exactly you changed. I only know them so well because I designed a lot of races for friends, campaigns, and ongoing projects.
Maybe its just me, but if I'm looking at something someone suggests alterations to, like the Fighter for example, I open the source material and compare the two. Since I titled this what I did, I guess I expected those who looked at it would do the same, or like you (and myself by now), know it well enough that looking up specifics aren't really necessary. I also didn't want to add in all the changes because I figured that would make it more cluttered and difficult to read.
You're grossly undervaluing the benefits of Large size.
How so? Large size can make it more difficult to move around in a limited area and allows for more enemies to attack at once, not to mention flanking. What benefits to Large am I missing/overlooking, besides the increased weapon size/damage?
The RP costs are kind of messed up when you look at skill bonuses. A +4 to a skill really should be much higher, especially if it's a valuable skill.
2RP is the cost for Static Feat and most feats (that I can think of off the top of my head) that give a bonus to skill checks give a +2 bonus to two skills, so a +4 bonus for the same cost seems quite reasonable, as it's basically specializing.
The cost for advanced ability scores at least made some sense because it's useful and made for Advanced tier races, who have double the RP budget than a Standard race.
Useful yes, but not at the same level as other Advanced Traits of the same cost like: Lucky, Greater; Elemental Immunity; Flight; or See In Darkness. Which is part of the reasoning behind lowering the cost, and unlike those examples, it can be taken more than once, with the price ramping up fairly quickly.
Fast is a really good trait. That's why it's an Advanced trait. Off the top of my head, none of the core, featured, or uncommon races have Fast despite a few of the uncommon races being over the top.
Making it a Speed option instead of an Advanced Trait doesn't unbalance or break things. I would counter you by saying that since even those races that are over the top do not use it, it isn't that great of an ability, it's helpful. But like I said at the end of my first response, Options. This allows for more customization within the bounds of the 8-15RP range races (where many of the example races sit). I could easily see the Catfolk, Kitsune, or Vanaras having 40ft speed, but are currently limited to the standard 30ft. While exceptionally quick races could benefit from the revised Fast (which could obviously use a better name).
I do like the ideas you have for weaknesses. However, most of your changes just lower RP costs (despite many options having too low of cost already) and make really powerful options more accessible for Standard tier races. All you really accomplish is raising the bar for how powerful a standard race can be. Lowering RP costs isn't really necessary for that because:
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3)You can just let players have Advanced tier races. You don't need to raise the power ceiling of Standard tier races when you can just let players have races of a more powerful tier.
It does add more RP points to toy around with, I don't see it as raising the ceiling. Excluding Frail Body's potential, all of the Standard Tier weaknesses I've added don't give much. The Advanced Tier weaknesses can potentially be quite damaging because there is no way to negate the damage or if there is (like with the elemental damage) if they get caught without that protection it is going to do a lot of harm, even more with the Negative and Positive energy damage (since there is, IIRC, no way to defend against it, it has a higher return).
...the game incentivizes players to choose races whose strengths are relevant and weaknesses are irrelevant. As a consequence, a game designer has to make the Weakness more crippling, which can easily make the race unfun to play.
My group does look at numbers, but they also look at flavor. If a race or concept is cool or interesting enough, they're willing to deal with some downsides if it makes for a fun time.
Kudos for belling the cat!
The whole Standard/Advanced/Monstrous bit is nonsense. Want more stuff, just go Monstrous and keep the points down. Party balance for exp/CR/etc is based on points, not Standard/Advanced/Monstrous status.
I disagree with a few of your adjustments, but I'll have to sleep on them before screaming at you. Might I get a reason for some of your changes:
Short-Winged and Winged Power seem cheap, why the low cost?
Reach and Extra Reach, ditto.
Arcane Sight is very powerful and a real threat to GM plotlines, 2 pts?
I'm pretty sure that a +4 Bonus to one thing is worth significantly more than two +2 Bonuses to different things.
Large provides increased damage, greatly boosts the effectiveness of size-increasing magic, raises CMB and CMD, but most importantly, grants reach. That's a free attack of opportunity on most melee attackers, free combat maneuvers without provoking, and a counter to the withdraw action.
Two +2s equal about one +3. See: skill boosting feats.
The whole Standard/Advanced/Monstrous bit is nonsense. Want more stuff, just go Monstrous and keep the points down. Party balance for exp/CR/etc is based on points, not Standard/Advanced/Monstrous status.
The race tier system in the race guidelines exist because not all racial traits are appropriate for a balanced standard player race.
However, I totally agree with you that it's pretty pointless to reduce RP costs and change trait tiers for the purpose of making more options. Better off just allowing Monstrous traits and restricting RP budget.
Still, it's generally not recommended to freely let players create their own races using the race guidelines. The guide isn't really meant for that.
Kudos for belling the cat!
Uhm..I have never heard that phrase, what does it mean exactly?
I disagree with a few of your adjustments, but I'll have to sleep on them before screaming at you. Might I get a reason for some of your changes:
Short-Winged and Winged Power seem cheap, why the low cost?
Reach and Extra Reach, ditto.
Arcane Sight is very powerful and a real threat to GM plotlines, 2 pts?
When you take Flight (after the initial 4RP points), for 2RP you gain a boost to speed and maneuverability. I noticed that one or two of the races in the ARG do not follow the rules laid out. So I split flight so you could take a boost to either speed or maneuverability for half the cost of gaining both.
Reach was changed to allow Medium creatures so you could have, as someone I saw put it, a slenderman type race. Or in my mind it could also represent a race that is very good an putting themselves into position to attack further away and return to their spot quickly.
Extra Reach is basically the same concept, but for Large.
Arcane Sight is powerful. It is based off of the Constant Spell-Like Divination. It should be 4RP, that was my goof that I didn't catch it.
Large provides increased damage, greatly boosts the effectiveness of size-increasing magic, raises CMB and CMD, but most importantly, grants reach. That's a free attack of opportunity on most melee attackers, free combat maneuvers without provoking, and a counter to the withdraw action.
Two +2s equal about one +3. See: skill boosting feats.
As I explained earlier the CMB and CMD are already taken care of in the balancing out of RP. It increases damage by one step, which is essentially the effect of a feat.
It doesn't greatly boost size increasing magic, that magic does exactly what does on a Medium creature: Increase by one step. If the spell made it so Large skipped right past Huge and into Gargantuan, then I would agree. Whether it did or did not do that wouldn't matter much because each of those would come with their own issues that increasing size does.
And no, Large DOES NOT grant Reach when using the ARG. Using the ARG, Large grants: +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 AC (size), -1 Attack, +1 CMB and CMD and -4 Stealth checks, with a space of 10x10 reach 5ft, the reach is the same as Small or Medium, unless you take Reach.
2 and 2 make 4, not 3. This has never made sense to me. I know it's meant to keep the power down, but there's no point in claiming that doubling something makes it not what it is.
Still, it's generally not recommended to freely let players create their own races using the race guidelines. The guide isn't really meant for that.
I don't let them, though I do talk to them and get an idea of what they'd like for a race and then I build it.
Example:S'Tethsar race
Someone in my group wanted a shadowy race, this is what I came up with. After it is written up like this, then I allow them to expand on the race, filling out its culture, religious beliefs, where they live, etc.