The Shield Slam feat gives you a free bull rush when you successfully perform a shield bash.
The Siegebreaker Fighter archetype gives you a free overrun when you successfully bull rush.
My question is: how does movement get resolved for this situation? The rules for overrun state: Quote: As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. [..] If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. But in this case, the free overrun is not being taken as part of a movement, since you do not have to move with your opponent for Shield Slam. Do you move through the opponent's square essentially for free? Are you limited in how much movement you can gain from this? For example, if you had a line of enemies spaced with 1 square between each, could you full attack your way through as many enemies as you have attacks, overruning each along the way to move 10 feet per attack?
I would say it only works with the Shield Slam if you choose to follow your opponent.
Are there any rules that support that?
After looking into it further, apparently even with a normal bull rush, you are not required to move with the target.
Bull Rush wrote: You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. I assume you would say in both cases, you cannot use the free overrun unless you choose to move with them?
Cryypter wrote: Are there any rules that support that?
After looking into it further, apparently even with a normal bull rush, you are not required to move with the target.
Bull Rush wrote: You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. I assume you would say in both cases, you cannot use the free overrun unless you choose to move with them?
Yes, I would say that both cases require you to move.
And no, there are no explicit rules that state it, but its the only way that makes any sense.
Overrun states that it is done as a standard action during a move, or as part of a charge (which actually makes how it works mechanically confusing) but in either case the character has to be moving to overrun.
In my mind it doesn't make sense to say you can overrun someone if you're not moving. Overrun is literally about running over someone, how can you do that if you don't move through their square and over them. It just doesn't make sense if you don't move.
So the only way this works is to attack with shield bash, get free bulrush from shield slam, move with target, and get free overrun attempt on target (where it would have normally been an standard action).
I think the problem is that you're thinking that overrun attempt would ever grant you free movement, but it absolutely doesn't. Which is why it states is has to be done as part of a charge or during a move action.
I'm with Claxon on this.
I think this is how it is meant to work:
"At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe and moves with it, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action if he still has movement left."
Claxon wrote: Cryypter wrote: Are there any rules that support that?
After looking into it further, apparently even with a normal bull rush, you are not required to move with the target.
Bull Rush wrote: You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. I assume you would say in both cases, you cannot use the free overrun unless you choose to move with them?
Yes, I would say that both cases require you to move.
And no, there are no explicit rules that state it, but its the only way that makes any sense.
Overrun states that it is done as a standard action during a move, or as part of a charge (which actually makes how it works mechanically confusing) but in either case the character has to be moving to overrun.
In my mind it doesn't make sense to say you can overrun someone if you're not moving. Overrun is literally about running over someone, how can you do that if you don't move through their square and over them. It just doesn't make sense if you don't move.
So the only way this works is to attack with shield bash, get free bulrush from shield slam, move with target, and get free overrun attempt on target (where it would have normally been an standard action).
I think the problem is that you're thinking that overrun attempt would ever grant you free movement, but it absolutely doesn't. Which is why it states is has to be done as part of a charge or during a move action. I agree that it doesn't make sense to overrun without moving.
If you didn't have Breaker Rush, I would also agree that in order to initiate an overrun from a free bull rush, you would have to spend the action to move with the target of the bull rush, as that is required in order to take the overrun action.
However, Breaker Rush provides a free overrun, thus bypassing the normal required standard action as part of a move action or charge, just like how Shield Slam lets you bypass the normal required standard action to perform a bull rush.
It allows you to "attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action"
It offers the check, nothing else. It definitely seems to me as if it's your job to provide everything else you need to actually move through the opponent.
How do you think it should work? How much extra, free movement would this free action give you? The Overrun maneuver has no answers, neither has the Breaker Rush ability.
Forseti wrote: It allows you to "attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action"
It offers the check, nothing else. It definitely seems to me as if it's your job to provide everything else you need to actually move through the opponent.
How do you think it should work? How much extra, free movement would this free action give you? The Overrun maneuver has no answers, neither has the Breaker Rush ability.
Actually, Overrun does.
Quote: If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. That's it. You do not get a free move action, you simply move through their space. If Overrun instead said "you can continue your movement through the target's space", I would agree with you. But it simply states that the benefit of an overrun is that you move through their space.
That's in the context of already being on the move. It also states: "If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space."
Does that mean, if you bull rush a foe 30' but fail the Overrun check, you somehow teleport to the space right in front of the creature? I mean, you only get to move ("through the target's space") when you succeed at the check. There's no mention anywhere about moving up to the creature before the check and also no implied movement after the check. Yet, you need to "stop in the space directly in front of the opponent". How does that work if you're not moving?
Breaker Rush only removes the need to spend a standard action to make the check by turning it into a free action, it does not change the other requirement, which is moving.
I assume you would have to be adjacent to your opponent to take the free overrun, so if you bull rush them 30 feet away but don't follow them, you wouldn't be in range to take the overrun.
It seems I didn't think through my example. I actually had a different scenario in mind than a line of opponents, but I thought that one would be simpler.
The case I am thinking of would be if you have an opponent cornered.
S = Siegebreaker
E = Enemy
______
|E S
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You make an attack, get a free bull rush, but since the target has a wall behind them, according to Shield Slam, they move the maximum distance (0 ft) and fall prone. You now get a free overrun, which if successful, allows you to move through their square, ending up here:
______
|E
|S
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EDIT:
Claxon wrote: Breaker Rush only removes the need to spend a standard action to make the check by turning it into a free action, it does not change the other requirement, which is moving. Hmm, you may be right...
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