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As always is among people who make homebrew material it's time for my Fighter ideas. Like my Monk rework I balanced upwards, trying to look at what iconic 'fighters' of fiction and reality are like. COmbining aspects of the old 3.5 Tome Fighter by Frank and K (the intro is straight up lifted from them and some of the abilities are copied from it) and aspects from other fighter fixes that I'd compiled. I admit I don't even remember all of the people who inspired abilities that are on it now, and if you happen to please give a word and I'll put some respectful credits on it!
A lot of the abilities are also from Frank and K's feats, rearranged to fit into a different format. I will say that I think this version of the fighter is actually a little too strong in some regards, but in our play testing they haven't really over performed tier 2 classes like sorcerers, but are distinctly above poorly built tier 3s. I'd love some feedback on if it does need toned down, if it's got something going for it, or if it's just one in a million reworks. All thoughts are progress!
SKILLS
I'm sure you know this, but Knowledge (warfare) is not a skill in Pathfinder RPG. Also, the "choose three skills" thing shouldn't appear in this section. You could instead say "In addition, fighter receive additional class skills as part of such-and-such class feature".
CLASS TABLE
The iterative bonuses are all messes up. Go back and check each line. Also, you have given three good saving throws. I have only ever done this with one homebrew class I wrote, and I took care to not give too many class features at level 1. This is to avoid turning a class you worked hard on into a one level dip class.
PROFICIENCIES
You should alter the language used so that it matches that wording of other pathfinder classes. You could probably just copy and paste the original fighter's proficiencies.
COMBAT SCHOOL
I kind of like the "choose two weapon groups" thing, but but level 1 you have painted the fighter as an absolute master of these groups, and there is no growth thereafter. The +2 bonus on all attack rolls is too much. A ranger gets +2 but only against specific enemy types, and the GM chooses what enemies he faces. A barbarian gets +2 but only while raging, but her rage is a limited resource. A fighter will nearly always have the weapons of his choosing, so the mitigating factor is almost nothing.
Einhander: you should make this a shield bonus, other wise it stacks with the bucker's shield bonus and becomes better than any shield in the game.
Subtle Cut: The wording should be more like "The fighter gains a +1 bonus on damage rolls with melee weapons" but that is probably too good.
Blind Fighting: I like this one, but compared to the first two choices I would never choose it because it will not often come up in battle. Especially not for the first few levels of play. With einhander and subtle cut, they will help in every single combat.
Feint Attack: The wording needs to be improved. A simpler wording might be "Any time the fighter attempts to feint an enemy, she can make an attack roll instead of making a Bluff check."
Occam's Duelist: I wish I knew how that would affect the game, but I don't .
Weapon Finesse: With this ability and several others, you mustmustmust change the wording to "The fighter gains [feat name] as a bonus feat." Otherwise, she doesn't have that feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats.
Horde Breaker: Same as weapon finesse, unless you want this to stack with Combat Reflexes.
Shield-bearer: If you want to grant the Improved Shield Bash feat, then please state that.
Rapid Fire: So a 1st level fighter can crank and load a heavy crossbow as a free action? Perhaps change the wording to that she gains the Rapid Reload feat but doesn't have to choose one type of weapon.
Juggernaut: Anytime it would benefit her is vague. I suppose that includes which combat maneuvers she can perform against larger enemies, her CMB and CMD, using weapons of a larger size category, a +4 bonus to Intimidate checks, carrying capacity is doubled (which stacks with pack mule), and her reach with weapons is probably doubled. Did you mean to grant all of these things?
Expert Tactician: I like the fist part, but not the second.
Professional Wrestler: You haven't granted the feat, so she will still need to take Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple if she wants to qualify for some of those advanced grappling feats.
Shield Specialization: She adds her shield bonus to touch AC instead of what? Instead of her normal AC? How about "The fighter can apply her shield bonus to her touch AC. She does not gain this bonus when she is immobilized or unconscious."
Stand Still: Did you know that this is the name of a combat feat in the core rule book that functions very similarly?
Whirlwind: I see the potential for a lot of abuse here, particularly with Juggernaut and a one level dip into the class.
Hunter: The name of this one doesn't thematically fit the benefit, and the benefit is weak compared to many others.
Giant Slayer: I'm glad you provided a link, but you should also mention the source.
Monkey Grip: Does this stack with Juggernaut? There might already be a feat for this. Not sure.
Phalanx Combat: An ability with phalanx in the name should probably have to do with fighting as a group. Also, the ability that is gained is just the secondary ability of the Combat Reflexes feat.
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw: Just grant the feat.
Unarmed Attack: Is it a slam attack or an unarmed strike? They follow different rules and you have made this ambiguous.
Two-Weapon Fighting: You simultaneously granted three feats and eliminated all potential two-weapon fighting attack penalties.
That's all I have time for now.
1) no interaction with AWT feats, AAT, stamina.
2) you get rid of scaling WM bonuses in favor of better iteratives. This is a tradeoff, but it also means that when limited to single attacks, your fighter is much less effective.
3) Bravery makes the fighter immune to fear at 13, but you also make them immune at 12th? Basically, Bravery becomes a useless ability.
4) Your skills promptly give back what the base chassis took away, resulting in stacking DPR horror. The fighter does not need a damage boost.
5) The multiclassing abilities of your Skills are too strong. At the very least, they should be limited to one per person. A f/17 Barb/1 MU/1 Cleric/1 is effectively a +18 BAB fighter with 10th level cleric and MU casting, with greater rage and rage powers.
Normally when people conflate martial and caster classes, the only thing that is boosted is Caster Level, not EVERYTHING.
6) The capstone is...underwhelming. Presto, you have a kingdom! is passing strange.
7) Juggernaut should just be toughness.
8) If you're going to borrow from the ToS, stay on theme. Feats should have school pre-reqs, and stances/strikes/skills should only be available to members of those schools.
9) Given the strength of the saving throw options you introduce later, I'm not sure saving throws/good all is appropriate. Even the warblade didn't do that.
Summary: Three stars. It's an average effort, hittign the required areas of class rewrite, and feat rewrites, and touches upon all the problem areas. IMO, it goes overboard, and the capstone is, well, quite odd.
Alright, thanks for the replies you guys, and firstly I will just say yeah it's overloaded and overpowered as it is, pretty much why I posted it here to hash it out since I'm the only real class designer in our group. I'll address everyones points one at a time.
Ciaran-
Skills: For now I've removed the additional 3 clause. It was an idea to make them more unique per player but this could be solved more elegantly. As for the Warfare knowledge that's something for our group, which works similarly to the Martial Lore skill in the Tome of Battle system, identifying an enemies fighting ability like one might identify spells (identifying what feats they have or looking at an army and figuring out who taught them. Probably redundant but it worked in out games and I forgot I had it there. I can remove it for sure)
Class table: If I did the attack bonuses right they should match up with Onslaught of blows. If they don't I'm just blind lol. I wrote them that way after the original way confused our group during initial testing, they would always forget to add the bonuses and thought it was useful. The saves were an afterthought I'm happy to change, What about Good Fortitude and Will? I personally don't have a problem with dipping (learned in 3.5 and had no problem with it for whatever reason), but if it's really an issue I'm alright with shaving some off.
Proficiencies: Couldn't hurt, it's basically the same anyways.
Combat School and abilities: Yes that is correct. As I would put the fighter in this varient it's not "generic fighting man", but someone who's been training most of their days, but (if level 1) no real combat experience. He's picked these two things to master, and for a novice he has. I had the growth as the improvements of the style he uses those weapons in more then actually using the weapons themselves. For the attack bonuses it wasn't really breaking him in play tests (He hit more than the others which was the intention, but did less damage than the Barbarian and Paladin), however I'm never opposed to dropping it down to +1 and maybe upping it later in the levels. What kind of increments do you suggest? +1 every 5 after first maybe?
Now the style abilities themselves I openly admit I did not create. I copied the scaling feats from Frank&K tome material and thought the wording was better than it was, so while I will defiantly be wanting to reword them now that I know they don't work as intended I will address the issues with them still.
Einhander: Is this a problem? If they want to stack AC and be a swashbuckling fighter type I don't see much an issue. If it's actually broken though I will of course turn it to a shield bonus. Power is ok, but too much is not.
Subtle Cut: Yeah I liked how it was as it was and didn't want to just mass increase the cumulative +1s.
Blind Fighting: I wish I could improve the level 1 variant too, how would you suggest so?
Feint Attack: I can agree with this, though it raises the question of whether they should get all the bonuses they do for an attack like weapon enhancement or conditional bonuses.
Occam's Duelist: As far as our testing goes it hasn't impacted raw power at all, only allowed for some some seriously smart fighters with lots of skill points.
Weapon Finesse: It's very inelegant and choppy so I do need to change it's placement and wording, but in the text after the weapon groups and before the actual abilities it does say " If any ability is named the same and or mimics the effect of a feat, the fighter may treat that ability as that feat for prerequisites.". This is terrible, and I will be going down the line to add it in that they either get the feat or it acts like it so this is much clearer. This is just how it's been during testing.
Horde Breaker: WOuld it be bad to say they stack? It seem redundant, so it would be either grant the feat like suggested or allow them to pick both. I suppose this might benefit high dexterity fighters who love to kill goblins.
Shield-bearer: It's got weird wording yeah, I'll be changing it in post since it's copy pasted from the original source (which basically had this replacing Improved Shield Bash entirely)
Rapid Fire: Should probably just change it to Rapid Reload, since it's meant to do as intended for crossbows and firearms...would probably be a good idea to not let firearms reload freely, but we haven't tested them with it yet so I don't know.
Juggernaut: I wouldn't consider reach or reach or anything like it a "roll" in and of itself, but this is meant to be the Powerful Build ability and is worded badly, so I can copy and paste that ability's wording.
Expert Tactician: Why's that?
Professional Wrestler: See Weapon Finesse.
Shield Specialization: Yeaaaah I didn't notice how vague it was at first. My brain just filled in the "normal shield AC" part. I like your wording much more.
Stand Still: I did actually, but in the ability adding process neglected to really read into it much. Having never used the feat how similar is it, might just be better to grant the feat itself.
Whirlwind: Juggernaut will not effect attack rolls of any kind unless it's part of CMB roll if I know Powerful Build right.
Hunter: Yeah I agree, but it was the one leading up into Shot on the Run so I kept it. One of our testers enjoyed it a lot shooting from horseback, but it is underwhelming.
Giant Slayer: what do you mean with that being here?
Monkey Grip: As is it says you can wield a weapon of any size, so it would probably supersede rather than stack. It's a bit much though honestly, this one is most likely going to change soon.
Phalanx Combat: Yeah it's weird, I didn't really get why Frank&K had it set up that way but it kinda worked out with the later versions.
Unarmed Attack: Was just how it was worded, will just be making it a monk's unarmed damage in the end most likely.
Two-Weapon Fighting: It does yes, and personally I don't have much an issue with it since Two-Weapon fighting is such an extremely feat heavy option to do, but like before if it's actually broken I'll change it.
Aralicia-
Fighter Skills: I don't actually remember where I got the idea for these, but I borrowed a good number of them from another source. I lost the credit sheet I'd put the details on when my last computer died so I wish I could tell you who did most of them. As for the Tome of Battle stuff I have no issue expanding them. I feel a little dumb having actually posted this here and not having a lot of the small detailed fleshed out, but I rushed a little.
Sneak Attack: How so? It's not all that much damage and allowed for both heavy armored feinting types as well as lightly equipped sneaking type fighters to all work almost as much damage as a two handed weapon fighter.
Bravery: I can see how it's strong (it was just meant as an upgrade to the original ability that we felt wasn't very good), though action economy is pretty tight for one to use on that. I guess as a swift action it wouldn't hurt. he idea was to make the fighter seem fearless (literally), but forcing a swift to shake something isn't terrible.
Problem Solver: The honest and simplest answer is that the ability is directly taken from the Tome Fighter of Frank&K, and I wrote the main draft of this before the Brawler existed. After it came out I wasn't really interested since I made my own monk fix a while ago (Way more fleshed out, had it up on the forums before). After looking at the Brawler however, I can agree this is a better ability and will be changing it.
Weapon Aptitude: this was an idea from one of our players, and it went over well with them but I do very much agree on it cheapening the whole feel of things. Do you think allowing the abilities or the numerical bonuses would be a better idea?
Onslaught of Blows: I'm honestly not a huge fan of how the attack bonuses at high level feel less worth it to get than the first attack, and this was an idea to improve on that feeling. You're suggesting that they have something like 20/20/10/5 at max? I just want to make sure I understand.
Active Assault: Yeah this needs addressed pretty quickly. My guess is that it would not block attacks since that pretty overpowered.
Forge Lore: Gonna change it to Craft(Arms and Armor). The intention is to allow a fighter to forge their own +2 and up weapons without needing a wizard. It doesn't let them put flaming (since they have no spells), just enhancement bonuses. Would this require the feat? if so I'll add it in.
Warlord: I never really understood why everyone hated Leadership. We've never had games derailed or anything by it though so I guess we're lucky maybe. How else would you word it? The idea is that if they buy/are rewarded with/take/quest for a castle or whatever you might determine a stronghold it would count, and the nobility and world pull that comes with it.
Stance Mastery: This is...a bad idea. It was to fill a spot and I was hoping to find something to replace it with from you guys since I ran out of ideas.
Imperial Regent: I uh..dang. I wasn't expecting that kind of a reaction honestly. The group ADORED this idea, since high level play is usually just bigger numbers and not much else they asked me for something that made them feel important in the world mechanically since not all worlds are devoid of high level people. The concept was to enable the character to become more important than just saying they were a king, but to allow the player to actually write out and detail how they wanted this kingdom to be and act. If they didn't want to the character to retire for some reason then they bonus is basically resources. They had their own people to help them gather information/help/tools. One of the players said "Reaching level 20 is not fun when all you get are more "kill things" abilities. What about ones that drastically change the whole world? You're a demigod not just a dude". I heavily agreed with this idea and decided to go for it. I'm sorry it somehow turned out offensive to you. In the interest of understanding, what would you want as a capstone?
1) no interaction with AWT feats, AAT, stamina.
2) you get rid of scaling WM bonuses in favor of better iteratives. This is a tradeoff, but it also means that when limited to single attacks, your fighter is much less effective.
3) Bravery makes the fighter immune to fear at 13, but you also make them immune at 12th? Basically, Bravery becomes a useless ability.
4) Your skills promptly give back what the base chassis took away, resulting in stacking DPR horror. The fighter does not need a damage boost.
5) The multiclassing abilities of your Skills are too strong. At the very least, they should be limited to one per person. A f/17 Barb/1 MU/1 Cleric/1 is effectively a +18 BAB fighter with 10th level cleric and MU casting, with greater rage and rage powers.
Normally when people conflate martial and caster classes, the only thing that is boosted is Caster Level, not EVERYTHING.
6) The capstone is...underwhelming. Presto, you have a kingdom! is passing strange.
7) Juggernaut should just be toughness.
8) If you're going to borrow from the ToS, stay on theme. Feats should have school pre-reqs, and stances/strikes/skills should only be available to members of those schools.
9) Given the strength of the saving throw options you introduce later, I'm not sure saving throws/good all is appropriate. Even the warblade didn't do that.
Summary: Three stars. It's an average effort, hittign the required areas of class rewrite, and feat rewrites, and touches upon all the problem areas. IMO, it goes overboard, and the capstone is, well, quite odd.
1: I don't know what those acronyms mean..or what stamina is in pathfinder.
2: I did see this as kind of an issue, so I gave them the Vital strike feat free at 6th hoping to somewhat mitigate that.
3: Saw that and fixed it after you pointed it out, thank you for that.
4: What do you mean? the base fighter has no damage abilities of note and ours have always been lagging behind in it when we played them.
5: I can agree with this, limiting the ability to one per character. How to word that on them is the question. It was mainly to try and encourage multiclassing, since in pathfinder it's rather lackluster.
6: I will take underwhelming over Aralicia's response personally lol. However I would love to hear how you'd improve it.
7: The Fighter Skill version? (yeah need to rename that). Why is that?
8: well it will never have schools. They were supposed to mimic the nature of the ToB, but ended up being kinda..not great. Probably just going to remove the Strike/Stance descriptor.
9: Yeah I mentioned I would be perfectly will to drop a good save, probably will edit that in later today.
Thanks for the thoughts though!, hoping to bump it to 4 stars at the end of all this.
AWT are Advanced Weapon Training feats, paizo's first stab at 'fighter powers'.
AAT feats are advanced Armor Training Feats, second stab.
Stamina is the system they introduced in Unchained? I think, to upgrade all combat feats. It was meant to be given to the fighter only, to make them better at combat feats then other classes.
Same book as Skill Unlocks.
As these are the three main categories which 'improve the fighter' from a Paizo standpoint, any rebuilds should look at them as a reference.
AWT feats suffer from the fact you get them so slowly, and give up the ability to be a switch hitter if you want more of them. They are generally as good as top tier feats, however.
AAT feats do the same as AWT feats, except you give up your class AC bonus now.
Stamina adds complexity and a pool to the game, and isn't generally supported (i.e. it's not in PFS, among other things, nor do they stat the iconics out with it, making it totally elective). But, a lot of people like the additional flex it brings.
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For the capstone, I'd simply make all weapons the fighter wields have a 19-20/x3 crit range, thus making them all equal to the best crit multiplier in the game, and stopping the competition between crit fishers and crit explosions.
Any rulership things should be on a completely different, elective leadership subsystem added 'alongside' the class, so the DM can choose whether or not to use it. It should be a metagame extra and not a core class ability, certainly not a capstone. Remember, the keep at 9th level was if the fighter WANTED one, in 1e.
If you want some 'downtime' and self improvement stuff, then look at Paizo's training/self-improvement rules, and make the Fighter twice as good at those as other classes...i.e. like Item Creation.
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Query to PFS people: I made a supposition and I might be wrong. Skill Unlocks and stamina are NOT followed in PFS, right?
AWT are Advanced Weapon Training feats, paizo's first stab at 'fighter powers'.
AAT feats are advanced Armor Training Feats, second stab.
Stamina is the system they introduced in Unchained? I think, to upgrade all combat feats. It was meant to be given to the fighter only, to make them better at combat feats then other classes.
Same book as Skill Unlocks.As these are the three main categories which 'improve the fighter' from a Paizo standpoint, any rebuilds should look at them as a reference.
AWT feats suffer from the fact you get them so slowly, and give up the ability to be a switch hitter if you want more of them. They are generally as good as top tier feats, however.
AAT feats do the same as AWT feats, except you give up your class AC bonus now.
Stamina adds complexity and a pool to the game, and isn't generally supported (i.e. it's not in PFS, among other things, nor do they stat the iconics out with it, making it totally elective). But, a lot of people like the additional flex it brings.
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For the capstone, I'd simply make all weapons the fighter wields have a 19-20/x3 crit range, thus making them all equal to the best crit multiplier in the game, and stopping the competition between crit fishers and crit explosions.Any rulership things should be on a completely different, elective leadership subsystem added 'alongside' the class, so the DM can choose whether or not to use it. It should be a metagame extra and not a core class ability, certainly not a capstone. Remember, the keep at 9th level was if the fighter WANTED one, in 1e.
If you want some 'downtime' and self improvement stuff, then look at Paizo's training/self-improvement rules, and make the Fighter twice as good at those as other classes...i.e. like Item Creation.
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Query to PFS people: I made a supposition and I might be wrong. Skill Unlocks and stamina are NOT followed in PFS, right?
Hmm, alright I'll see if those are on the pathfinder wiki. I was uninterested in buying the material at all since all I knew that sounded tempting was the Unchained Rogue (I was working on improvemnt ideas at the time, so it was relevant). I'd never heard of those things before now, so if they pan out with my design goals I'll definitely start a new draft to include them or something similar.
My group was on board with the idea of 'You are now stupid important', and so I delivered on such, I'm going to guess we're some odd people because of it, but hey this is why I'm here, I want to hear the criticisms too. As for the suggestion on the capstone I'm grateful and do love the idea, though that's really lackluster for level 20 to me, and seems more like something a level 10-12 should be getting. In most of my write ups the capstone tends to feel that way for the sake of balancing out with things before it, but the group (and myself) really wanted level 20 to feel like it's level 20, the big leagues, the best of the best, above all others of the same class sorta thing.
I admit as much as I do like the idea of this capstone though, you all have good points and I'm rethinking it even as I type this. I do really like the critical idea though and want to use it, maybe even as part of the capstone. Speaking of this, do you have a problem with warlord? since you brought it up I want to make sure since it is a somewhat similar ability (though with an attached in game part).
EINHANDER
Well the difference between a buckler heavy shield is only 1 point of AC. Both can get enhancement bonuses. The fighter can have a shield bonus and gets a +2 "parry" bonus on top of that. How about call it a +1 shield bonus when he has a hand free, and then increase it by +1 every X levels. The bonus should have some kind of mitigating factor, such as when immobilized or helpless.
FEINT ATTACK
Yes, all bonuses.
EXPERT TACTICIAN
Some of these are just too powerful.
EINHANDER
Well the difference between a buckler heavy shield is only 1 point of AC. Both can get enhancement bonuses. The fighter can have a shield bonus and gets a +2 "parry" bonus on top of that. How about call it a +1 shield bonus when he has a hand free, and then increase it by +1 every X levels. The bonus should have some kind of mitigating factor, such as when immobilized or helpless.FEINT ATTACK
Yes, all bonuses.EXPERT TACTICIAN
Some of these are just too powerful.
Hmmm...Alright I'm game for changing it, I don't really use shields in my characters so I wasn't really thinking a buckler would be that great. It does go up by 1 when you get the Improved and Greater combat school versions as well, and speaking of which would it be alright for the attack roll bonuses to improve by 1when the style improves?
I'd had the thought of making the style kinda limited by like "Fighter level in rounds per combat", but either keeping abilites as they are or upping their power. Making the style more like a thing they expend energy on to use. Or possibly add the Stamina subsystem to make it "uses one stamina per round to maintain" kinda deal.
For feint attack I'm cool with that, they feint hard and good lol.
And for expert tactician, what about letting them have the bonuses, or like a move action to shout and order to an ally that is flanking to give them the bonus? If not I can take out the ally part.
ah, yes, I was going to point that parry out, as well.
Prior comparisons of passive 'parry' abilities that grant AC make the blade a 'shield', and so they grant Shield AC.
If they are an active parry, it is a contested roll between the two strikes, working if you beat your opponent's roll...like Crane Wing.
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Naoki,
Well, ALL weapons you have suddenly having the best possible crit range/multiplier combo is a pretty nice thing for just about anyone. Of course, auto confirming the critical was assumed from the standard fighter capstone, my apologies.
When I did my fighter build, I actually had FIVE capstones, at levels 17 through 20.
There was a Bravery capstone.
There was an Armor Training capstone.
There was a weapon training capstone.
There was a leadership capstone
And there was a warlord capstone.
The leadership capstone doubled the normal results of leadership, and even allowed you to have two cohorts. Prior levels of leadership and warlord allowed you to give extra bonuses to your followers, and your followers had higher levels.
At 18th level, your higher grade followers could easily reach 6th level...and have followers of their own via taking leadership, which were also treated as your followers! The combination could leave you in control of an extremely large number of followers that you could employ as you like. Your personal army, led by you, was indeed extremely dangerous, and quite LARGE (the numbers could easily get into the thousands).
You could also train your followers into PC classes (fighters and rogues, for the most part), instead of mere warriors and experts, resulting in truly elite followers levels higher then other warriors on the battlefield.
So, yeah, if you wanted to develop them and the DM was cool with it, your leadership and warlord capstones gave you influence over a LOT of people...your own personal army/mercenary band.
ah, yes, I was going to point that parry out, as well.
Prior comparisons of passive 'parry' abilities that grant AC make the blade a 'shield', and so they grant Shield AC.
If they are an active parry, it is a contested roll between the two strikes, working if you beat your opponent's roll...like Crane Wing.
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Naoki,Well, ALL weapons you have suddenly having the best possible crit range/multiplier combo is a pretty nice thing for just about anyone. Of course, auto confirming the critical was assumed from the standard fighter capstone, my apologies.
When I did my fighter build, I actually had FIVE capstones, at levels 17 through 20.
There was a Bravery capstone.
There was an Armor Training capstone.
There was a weapon training capstone.
There was a leadership capstone
And there was a warlord capstone.The leadership capstone doubled the normal results of leadership, and even allowed you to have two cohorts. Prior levels of leadership and warlord allowed you to give extra bonuses to your followers, and your followers had higher levels.
At 18th level, your higher grade followers could easily reach 6th level...and have followers of their own via taking leadership, which were also treated as your followers! The combination could leave you in control of an extremely large number of followers that you could employ as you like. Your personal army, led by you, was indeed extremely dangerous, and quite LARGE (the numbers could easily get into the thousands).You could also train your followers into PC classes (fighters and rogues, for the most part), instead of mere warriors and experts, resulting in truly elite followers levels higher then other warriors on the battlefield.
So, yeah, if you wanted to develop them and the DM was cool with it, your leadership and warlord capstones gave you influence over a LOT of people...your own personal army/mercenary band.
I would never say it wouldn't be nice! It is a pretty good bonus of course, and the auto confirming crits is nice.
I actually really like handling it like that, with a big finish to each of the abilities. The followers bit is awesome too, though it makes me wonder what Leadership haters would say to it lol. I like it alot and wouldn't mind doing something like that instead of what's there currently.
The main reason I said the critical stuff was underwhelming is because of the design plan that was in place for level 20. Not just more combat bonuses, something that would change the way you would even treat/play the character. Your own leadership ability comes much closer to that than the critical bonuses, which I think I would like to add as a Fighter Skill (probably renaming them to Drills or something) or innate bonus. The auto confirming of the base fighter could be a high level fighter skill or something.
Per leadership and not being able to have followers without the feat:
This is technically correct. Followers are people whose personal loyalty is to you before all other forces. technically, they work for you, they follow you, and do whatever you tell them to. They are more then employees and underlings. If you leave, they go with you.
Other people have underlings given to them by dint of their positions in a hierarchy, or employees they pay to work for them. It's like having your own little cult doing whatever you say, without the fanatical religious overtones. They've made the choice to ride your coattails to fame and fortune.
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the reason I have multiple capstones is very simple...level 9 casters.
At 17/18, casters get tons of capstones.
The summoning/transport capstones, Gate, Greater Transport circle, and MS 9 and Elemental Swarm.
The Fire AOE capstone, Meteor Swarm.
The Bend Reality capstone, Wish/Miracle.
The Save-the-Whole-Party capstones, Mass Heal and True REsurrection.
The 'You're Dead' Capstones, Wail of the Banshee and Power Word: Kill.
The Be-Who-I-Wanna-Be Capstone, Shapechange.
The My-Home-is-Better Capstone, Create Greater Demiplane.
The Your-Items-are-toast capstone, Disjunction.
The spider-sense capstone, Foresight.
The There-used-to-be-a-town-here capstones, Cursed Earth and Tsunami.
The You-Are-Mine capstones, Dominate Monster and Overwhelming Prescence.
Look at all the capstones they get.
Now compare the number of capstones that martials get. Yeah, seems a little lacking, doesn't it? And casters get them 2-3 levels SOONER.
So, multiple capstones.
I actually really like handling it like that, with a big finish to each of the abilities. The followers bit is awesome too, though it makes me wonder what Leadership haters would say to it lol. I like it alot and wouldn't mind doing something like that instead of what's there currently.I'm half/half on this. I like the bit about training the followers, I'm meh on the double results.
I personnaly have 2 issues with the Leadership feat.
The first is a personal bias due to some abuses of it I've seen in game (even though its cousin, the Thrallherd, is even worse on this point. It was a 3.5 prestige class that basically mixed Leadership with mental Domination). For this reason, I have an automatic ban on this feat in my games, and instead offer alternative ways to get cohort & followers. However, I try to not let this bias influence me when looking at new homebrews.The second issue is that it create wierd situations due to it's presence as a Feat and the vagueness of the rules.
I've seen people argue that a character with this feat shouldn't be able to have followers at all (ie, the DM can't give following NPCs to any character without Leadership); This would become a problem any time a character get nominated to a position of authority (PC or NPCs alike); is the guard captain unable to control his troops until he manage to get enough levels to grab leadership ?
I've also seen people argue that a character with Leadership should always have access to his followers no matter the situation; even if the group is on a inhabited island following a shipwreck.I believe that the current follower mechanics should be a feature available to all, and that the Leadership feat should enhance the character affinity with this mechanics, rather than enable it.
Back to the Naoki's fighter : I'll reply to your reply, but I need some time to correctly but everything together in my head.
Take your time sir, I'm happy for the help.
Ahhh yes the Thrallherd. The fastest way I've seen to make people cry looking at your thrallherd with a thrallherd cohort with a thrallherd cohort with a thrallherd cohort. Least if I remember the broken thing right.
Per leadership and not being able to have followers without the feat:
This is technically correct. Followers are people whose personal loyalty is to you before all other forces. technically, they work for you, they follow you, and do whatever you tell them to. They are more then employees and underlings. If you leave, they go with you.
Other people have underlings given to them by dint of their positions in a hierarchy, or employees they pay to work for them. It's like having your own little cult doing whatever you say, without the fanatical religious overtones. They've made the choice to ride your coattails to fame and fortune.
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the reason I have multiple capstones is very simple...level 9 casters.At 17/18, casters get tons of capstones.
The summoning/transport capstones, Gate, Greater Transport circle, and MS 9 and Elemental Swarm.
The Fire AOE capstone, Meteor Swarm.
The Bend Reality capstone, Wish/Miracle.
The Save-the-Whole-Party capstones, Mass Heal and True REsurrection.
The 'You're Dead' Capstones, Wail of the Banshee and Power Word: Kill.
The Be-Who-I-Wanna-Be Capstone, Shapechange.
The My-Home-is-Better Capstone, Create Greater Demiplane.
The Your-Items-are-toast capstone, Disjunction.
The spider-sense capstone, Foresight.
The There-used-to-be-a-town-here capstones, Cursed Earth and Tsunami.
The You-Are-Mine capstones, Dominate Monster and Overwhelming Prescence.Look at all the capstones they get.
Now compare the number of capstones that martials get. Yeah, seems a little lacking, doesn't it? And casters get them 2-3 levels SOONER.So, multiple capstones.
You're exactly right and I agree fully. I don't know if I have enough hard scaling abilities yet for true capstones, but I'm in the process of a theoretical write up of the improvements/changes. I'm liking the idea of Stamina applications myself, what do you think of instead of Bonus Feat/Sneak Attack that the Fighter got a Trick Feat every 4 levels? A trick feat would be any feat on the list of feats that has a Combat Trick with stamina.
Fighters already get tons of combat feats. If you want to add Stamina to your tricks, just add stamina. Technically, if you introduce the combat system, all combat feats should have a stamina kicker on them. They spent a LOT of time writing up those kickers.
An easier rework might just be a triple-tiered feat: take the combat feats you like and give them a new line: Fighter: Combat Reflexes grants additional AoO equal to your Weapon Training bonus, as an example.
I.e. don't create something totally new, build on what is already there. Saves a LOT of effort.
Fighters already get tons of combat feats. If you want to add Stamina to your tricks, just add stamina. Technically, if you introduce the combat system, all combat feats should have a stamina kicker on them. They spent a LOT of time writing up those kickers.
An easier rework might just be a triple-tiered feat: take the combat feats you like and give them a new line: Fighter: Combat Reflexes grants additional AoO equal to your Weapon Training bonus, as an example.
I.e. don't create something totally new, build on what is already there. Saves a LOT of effort.
I like doing things the hard way lol. Part of it is our combined dislike of how simplistic and uninteresting the base fighter is.
I want to keep some aspects of this since they were fun to use like some of the fighter skills (renaming them to Fighter's Prowess or similar most likely), the combat school (fixing the abilities of course) and some other things. Other than the combat school abilities and the bonuses at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 18 in the current set up they get no more feats than any other class so I thought the trick feat idea might be a way to encourage use of stamina on things other than the school which I'll be tying it too,and show the combat tricks to people that play with my homebrew material since I can assure you that if I've never heard of Stamina and combat tricks, they never have and probably wouldn't want to use it at all unless shown it was cool.
Even the very base ability of stamina is cool...spending Stamina for a TH bonus. adding stamina should be a no-brainer if your group and style can handle it.
Even the very base ability of stamina is cool...spending Stamina for a TH bonus. adding stamina should be a no-brainer if your group and style can handle it.
It is very cool yes, hence wanting to utilize it! I know they are kinda resistant to new rules and changes to things in the base rules, while weird classes and such are welcomed. Thus I was thinking of just keeping it localized to the reworked fighter for now so they can decide for themselves if they like it.
I know our two caster purists will greatly oppose it, but they know I'm a martial gal so they can deal.
The stamina rules don't really help a fighter do more damage...they give him other things to do.
By restricting it to the fighter, it doesn't 'hurt' other classes...it helps the fighter.
Most other classes don't use much in the way of combat feats. they use general feats aimed at their classes or the areas where fighters have weakness...saves, utility, defenses, and movement.
Ignore the casters. Every fighter analyst on these boards will tell you that stamina helps with options and giving choices in combat, mostly because it adds a pool...but it doesn't SOLVE any outstanding issues, just throws some smoke in front of them.
The stamina rules don't really help a fighter do more damage...they give him other things to do.
By restricting it to the fighter, it doesn't 'hurt' other classes...it helps the fighter.
Most other classes don't use much in the way of combat feats. they use general feats aimed at their classes or the areas where fighters have weakness...saves, utility, defenses, and movement.
Ignore the casters. Every fighter analyst on these boards will tell you that stamina helps with options and giving choices in combat, mostly because it adds a pool...but it doesn't SOLVE any outstanding issues, just throws some smoke in front of them.
Well yeah I know that much just reading the rules on it, though for combat feats you should tell that to my group lol. They loath the feats you're describing because to them it's not "immediate value" in most games since they hate conditional bonuses. I'm not that much a fan either but I enjoy most of the feats there are for utility, just wish we got more.
I'm trying to...mitigate the outstanding issues. I know I'll never fully fix them, but I want to make things fun enough that they are easy to ignore.
So, they hate buff spells? Spells are conditional.
Because stamina effects are basically short term buff effects. Giving fighters more to do in a fight then say "I swing my pointy stick" is why stamina is there in the first place. They can actually make relevant choices that have an effect on combat.
Y'know, like casters do.
So, they hate buff spells? Spells are conditional.
Because stamina effects are basically short term buff effects. Giving fighters more to do in a fight then say "I swing my pointy stick" is why stamina is there in the first place. They can actually make relevant choices that have an effect on combat.
Y'know, like casters do.
I wouldn't necessarily call spells conditional myself, but no they don't like buff spells. They don't like things like Dodge, or any feat that doesn't provide a benefit that is tangible, always useful, and worth the investment. They like Spring Attack, hate that it requires two feats they would never take otherwise for example.
I perfectly agree with you, but I'm just trying to understand if you're saying how good Stamina is should alone be enough with no extra rework at all or not.
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Oh, no, you still need more.
But the stamina system is usable and viable. It's like spell points for fighters. If they like video games, they should understand it immediately.
I just consider it an 'extra' add-on that helps things.
Basically, I have these criteria for a fighter build:
1) Don't need much in additional combat bonuses. Fighter DPR is fine.
2) Feat consolidation needed. Call them Talents, Edges, Techniques, WHATEVER...you need them.
3) Better saves. +reflex or +will, but SOMETHING!
4) Skills and skill points should be expanded because…not a caster!
5) More movement, utility, and defense options.
6) Something unique or special? Because TH/DMG/AC bonuses are not special.
7) Stuff less tied to character stats, and more by level. It's about skill at arms, not stats at arms. Stats at arms is the Paladin and Barb.
8) Some form of combat bonus at level 1 that is not just an elective feat, please. All the other martial classes have SOMETHING.
9) Some type of intra-day or inter-day versatility. The Brawler's Martial Flexibility is one way of doing this.
10) Need for archetypes and PrC's should mostly be taken care of by a feat/talent or two. THis is a personal bias.
11) Recovery options. The fighter literally has no way to recover from anything, in addition to no defenses/immunities.
By current estimation, it should include the following:
the stamina system
Advanced Weapon training feats or equivs.
Advanced Armor training feats or equivs.
Martial versatility for flexibility.
And it should be rateable on how well it performs the core roles of Champion, Master, Sentinel, Hunter, Soldier and Warlord.
Integrate all these things well, and you've a good fighter rebuild.
Oh, no, you still need more.
But the stamina system is usable and viable. It's like spell points for fighters. If they like video games, they should understand it immediately.
I just consider it an 'extra' add-on that helps things.
Basically, I have these criteria for a fighter build:
1) Don't need much in additional combat bonuses. Fighter DPR is fine.
2) Feat consolidation needed. Call them Talents, Edges, Techniques, WHATEVER...you need them.
3) Better saves. +reflex or +will, but SOMETHING!
4) Skills and skill points should be expanded because…not a caster!
5) More movement, utility, and defense options.
6) Something unique or special? Because TH/DMG/AC bonuses are not special.
7) Stuff less tied to character stats, and more by level. It's about skill at arms, not stats at arms. Stats at arms is the Paladin and Barb.
8) Some form of combat bonus at level 1 that is not just an elective feat, please. All the other martial classes have SOMETHING.
9) Some type of intra-day or inter-day versatility. The Brawler's Martial Flexibility is one way of doing this.
10) Need for archetypes and PrC's should mostly be taken care of by a feat/talent or two. THis is a personal bias.
11) Recovery options. The fighter literally has no way to recover from anything, in addition to no defenses/immunities.By current estimation, it should include the following:
the stamina system
Advanced Weapon training feats or equivs.
Advanced Armor training feats or equivs.
Martial versatility for flexibility.And it should be rateable on how well it performs the core roles of Champion, Master, Sentinel, Hunter, Soldier and Warlord.
Integrate all these things well, and you've a good fighter rebuild.
Alright thank you for clearing that up! but alright let me see here.
1) I don't entirely agree on this point just for the fact that even with the little bit of sneak attack bonus the original write up would never outshine a barbarian, but I wholeheartedly agree with some points already made about the class stacking abilities and am not super attached to the bonuses. I like damage and it's a bias, but away it will go.
2) I feel the School and now called Prowess abilities easily fulfill this role, but I know the school needs trimmed and focused. I will be removing the initial +2 on attacks and making it a +1, then growing to a +4 at 20th as I add in a combat school related capstone component. +1 per upgrade of school.
3) In the new draft I've taken out the all good saves and made it Fort and Will. I think this describes where their strengths are in this version.
4) After taking out the additional 3 skills line, you feel this skill list better fits?
5) This is supposed to fulfilled by school, prowess, and the active assault ability, but I honestly know I could have used that better. I'd like to replace or move it around a little, maybe turn it into a Prowess ability that can be taken more than once at certain levels?
6) I'm hoping the combat school and other abilities like Threat assessment and Warlord will fill this, but if not I am more than willing to hash out something more unique.
7) I don't feel I've done this too bad, with the school allowing you to mitigate this issue and even personalize the reasoning, but I'm unsure if it meets the expected results yet.
8) Combat School should fulfill this, but I do know it might not be enough to really feel right.
9) I added that in actually! I feel the suggestion for it already improved the design greatly.
10) I personally love the concepts behind archetypes, but I feel they actually don't change enough in a lot of cases. I admit to bias however as I'm one of those weird designers that feel every new theme deserves a whole mechanic to go with it rather than refluff other things.
11) This is something I don't feel I implemented well or at all in my designs. I really should do this in the second draft, perhaps the ability to regain stamina faster than anyone else, say "attack roll modifier in points" for taking a full round? Or maybe using stamina to regain health with or without the first ability. Perhaps letting fighters heal faster through sleep/rest due to their tendency to be in battle for long hours? Bravery I think partly fulfills this, but I'm going to work the FINAL version of it to be the current version.
As for the advanced weapon/armor training feats I'm reluctant to include them for two main reasons. The primary being that I don't have Weapon/Armor Training as abilities at all. Weapon training was replaced with combat school and alone feels bland, plus not knowing about the advanced ones to begin with. The second one being that since I've never seen them, I have no idea how powerful they are compared to regular feats and so don't know their balance points/how many to give/if they will conflict with combat school. If you wouldn't mind explaining their rough power level I will happily note it down though.
I think I've at least got a good footing if an unfinished/imperfect product. I really do appreciate you guys help with this, all the suggestions made have helped greatly.
The advanced weapon training options are found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Tr aining
it's quite simple to say: Or you can take an AWT option anytime you take a school skill, instead.
I couldn't find the advanced armor training options yet on d20, and archives of Nethys seems to be down.
The stamina and combat tricks are found here;
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks -optional-rules
Just so you know, boring progressive bonuses are FINE on a base chassis...just don't consider them a 'feature' at every level they advance. Your weapon training going from +1 to +2 is no more a class feature then a caster's fireball going from 6d6 to 7d6.
+4 weapon training isn't a capstone, it's just a rising bonus. Capstones stand alone, like class features.
The advanced weapon training options are found here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Tr aining
it's quite simple to say: Or you can take an AWT option anytime you take a school skill, instead.
I couldn't find the advanced armor training options yet on d20, and archives of Nethys seems to be down.
The stamina and combat tricks are found here;
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks -optional-rules
Just so you know, boring progressive bonuses are FINE on a base chassis...just don't consider them a 'feature' at every level they advance. Your weapon training going from +1 to +2 is no more a class feature then a caster's fireball going from 6d6 to 7d6.
+4 weapon training isn't a capstone, it's just a rising bonus. Capstones stand alone, like class features.
thanks for the feats link, I'd found the stamina page but I couldn't fine the feats for some reason or another. And I know that much, I've used static bonuses in a number of classes, but just as part of an ability rather than the whole bonus. So don't worry the +4 is only an additional bit of icing on the cake. I plan for the actually meat of the capstone to be more impactful. I'm still at a loss as to make the world changing part of it though since the original design isn't well received.
Which is why I stuck 'world-changing' under Leadership, which is always optional. If you don't want to be a leader of men and command a horde of followers...then you don't have it.
Casters get 'world-changing' just by having access to level 9 spells...they literally don't need a capstone.
you may want a 'choose your own' capstone, perhaps by looking at Mythic feats.
Oh, one thing i give all high level fighters is immunity to age penalties, and later, they stop aging entirely.
Which is why I stuck 'world-changing' under Leadership, which is always optional. If you don't want to be a leader of men and command a horde of followers...then you don't have it.
Casters get 'world-changing' just by having access to level 9 spells...they literally don't need a capstone.
you may want a 'choose your own' capstone, perhaps by looking at Mythic feats.
Oh, one thing i give all high level fighters is immunity to age penalties, and later, they stop aging entirely.
True enough there, and yeaaaah that's one thing I don't like about full casters. I honestly wish spells were vastly weaker to allow for more interesting and fun mechanics with them, but that's a beast I know I'm not experienced enough to tackle.
The mythic angle has some promise to it though, like maybe give mythic rank 1 or something? As for the aging I was going to add that in actually lol. I adore the trope of the white haired old soldier who still beats people down.
Ok, so I've been working a little with the Combat School abilities, and I want to know if these look like they might work well or be too strong. This is just the level 1 variant.
whenever the fighter wields a weapon belonging her chosen groups, she gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls. This counts as the Weapon Focus feat for all prerequisites. Lastly choose two of the following abilities to enhance her weapons style. Unless otherwise stated bonuses only function while the fighter is using as weapon from one of her chosen groups.
Einhander: The fighter gain benefits for using a light or one-handed weapon in only one hand, while keeping the other free or with only a buckler. She gains a +2 shield bonus to AC which doesn't apply to touch or flatfooted. It is a result of her ability to deflect blows with her weapon. When an opponent make an attack against her and misses, she may spend 1 point of stamina as an immediate action to make an attack of opportunity against that opponent (assuming she still has any left to make).
Subtle Cut: All of the fighters melee damage is increased by 1. Before rolling her damage she may spend 2 points of stamina to increase the total by 1. She may do this multiple times on a single damage roll, but the bonus damage cannot exceed her base attack bonus.
Blind Fighting: The fighter gains the Blind-Fight feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Feint Attack: Any time the fighter attempts to feint an enemy, she can make an attack roll instead of making a Bluff check. She also gains the Improved Feint feat even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Occam’s Duelist: The fighter’s wit is sharp enough to see through deceptions by pure analysis. This makes it evident when stabbing is a good plan - almost always. The fighter may use her Intelligence modifier instead of her Strength modifier for calculating her melee attack bonus. When the fighter uses points of stamina to to gain a competence bonus on melee attack roll, she may treat her base attack bonus as one higher per point spent for the purpose of the Combat Expertise feat (if she possesses it).
Weapon Finesse: The fighter is far more dexterous than she is a brute. She gains the Weapon Finesse feat even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites., and may apply it to any weapon within her chosen groups regardless of if she would normally be able to or not.
Horde Breaker: The fighter’s combat style is adept at handling large numbers of foes. She gains Combat Reflexes feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Shieldbearer: The fighter is the ultimate master of sword-and-board. Or, if she’s feeling creative, she may try board-and-board instead. Firstly the fighter adds “all shields” to her combat style weapons. She also gains the Improved Shield Bash feat even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites..
Rapid Fire: The fighter gains the Rapid Shot feat even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.. If one of her weapon groups are Crossbows, she also gains the Rapid Reload feat.
Learned Archery: The fighter’s high intelligence lets her know just where to strike to penetrate an opponent's armor. She may use her Intelligence Modifier in place of her Dexterity Modifier on ranged attack rolls. When the fighter uses points of stamina to to gain a competence bonus on a ranged attack roll, she may instead choose to reduce the attack penalty of a called shot by an equal amount.
Juggernaut: The fighter gains the Powerful Build ability of the Half-Giant.
Expert Tactician: The fighter gains a +4 bonus when flanking instead of the normal +2 bonus. If the fighter is flanking with an ally she may spend 1 point of stamina to direct their positioning to mimic hers, giving them the same bonus for 1 round. Only one ally can benefit from this ability at a time.
Professional Wrestler: The fighter gains the Improved Grapple feat even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Saddleborn Warrior: The fighter gains the Mounted Combat feat even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites. She may spend 1 point of stamina to take 10 on a ride check even under stressful conditions.
Shield Specialization: The fighter may add her shield bonus to her touch AC instead her normal AC for 1 round as an immediate action. If she becomes immobilized or helpless she loses this benefit. She may spend 1 point of stamina when activating this ability to retain her shield bonus to her normal AC as well.
Stand Still: The fighter gains the Stand Still feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites. When she declares her use of the feat, she may spend 1 stamina point to use an attack roll in place of her CMB to determine her success.
Verbose Assault: The fighter may use her Charisma modifier instead of her Strength modifier for calculating her melee attack bonus. She also gains the Dazzling Display feat.
Whirlwind: The fighter gains the Whirlwind Attack feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Hunter: The penalties for using a ranged weapon from an unstable platform (such as a ship or a moving horse) are halved. While on such a platform (such as a horse), the fighter may spend 1 point of stamina to instead completely remove the penalties for one round.
Giant Slayer: The fighter gains the Giant-Killer Stance feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites. By spending 1 point of stamina when she makes an attack of opportunity against a creature of large size or larger she may treat the attack as if were a readied attack, even if she isn’t using a reach weapon.
Insightful Strike: The fighter may use her Wisdom modifier instead of her Strength modifier for calculating her melee attack bonus. She also gains the Alertness feat due to her keen intuition.
Phalanx Combat: The fighter may make attacks of opportunity even while flat footed as long as she is adjacent to another ally. Whenever an enemy would provoke an attack of opportunity from the fighter and she is adjacent to another ally that also gained an attack of opportunity, points of stamina used to gain a competence bonus on the attack roll also give the bonus to the adjacent ally. Only one ally can benefit from this ability at a time.
Point Blank Shot: The fighter gains the Point Blank Shot feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Quick Draw: The fighter gains the Quick Draw feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Precise Shot: The fighter gains the Precise Shot feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Unarmed Combat: The fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites. Her unarmed strike deals damage of a Monk equal to her fighter level -4 (or 1d8 if using the Monk Rework).
Two-Weapon Fighting: The fighter gains the Two Weapon fighting feat, even if she doesn’t meet the prerequisites.
Zen Archery: The fighter may use her Wisdom Modifier in place of her Dexterity Modifier on ranged attack rolls. She may spend 2 points of stamina to reduce any target’s cover by one step for one round. This makes Total Cover into only Partial, and ignores Partial cover.
Pardon the typos, was writing in the early morning and wasn't paying attention.
Occam's Duelist: Not at all sure what you are trying to do with this with Expertise.
Learned Archery: effectively does nothing if you spend stamina?
Verbose Assault: Charisma to hit. Well, I suppose...
Einhander: this is come and get me, a free attack generating machine. Just, ow. Build for AC and kill everything attacking you.
Learned Archery: You know every archer knows where to hit. it's being able to hit it which is the problem, right? Compare it to Zen archery, too.
Pro Wrestler: So, you're introducing a feat+ that is basically a normal feat, right?
Same with TWF, whirlwind, etc. Why are some feats+ stamina, and others just feats? And your stat sub feats aren't equal in power.
You're spending a full technique on Quick Draw? Oh, come on.
==============================
I think you're doing too much work.
You could simply borrow much of the Ranger Schools (which should be Fighter schools, anyways), with the side note that fighters also get the stamina benefits of the feats. the work is already done, easy to understand, and saves you time and effort.
Put your other efforts towards the unique Techniques or whatever you want, that actually consolidate feats or offer powerful effects. The Style stuff is already done, no need to do it twice.
Occam's Duelist: Not at all sure what you are trying to do with this with Expertise.
Learned Archery: effectively does nothing if you spend stamina?
Verbose Assault: Charisma to hit. Well, I suppose...
Einhander: this is come and get me, a free attack generating machine. Just, ow. Build for AC and kill everything attacking you.
Learned Archery: You know every archer knows where to hit. it's being able to hit it which is the problem, right? Compare it to Zen archery, too.
Pro Wrestler: So, you're introducing a feat+ that is basically a normal feat, right?
Same with TWF, whirlwind, etc. Why are some feats+ stamina, and others just feats? And your stat sub feats aren't equal in power.You're spending a full technique on Quick Draw? Oh, come on.
==============================I think you're doing too much work.
You could simply borrow much of the Ranger Schools (which should be Fighter schools, anyways), with the side note that fighters also get the stamina benefits of the feats. the work is already done, easy to understand, and saves you time and effort.Put your other efforts towards the unique Techniques or whatever you want, that actually consolidate feats or offer powerful effects. The Style stuff is already done, no need to do it twice.
Occam's Duelist: It was just an idea I thought might be interesting, might not really provide much in practice though after running with it.
Learned Archery: My fault for writing in the early morning, the instead should be "also".
Verbose Assault: I really liked these tome feats and felt they deserved to be part of a fighter's kit, since a fighter is not any one defined type of combatant.
Einhander: Think even with stamina and AoOs limiting it it's too much? Should limit it to once per round then, probably do that sometime today.
Pro wrestler: well this was kinda the suggestion I was being given on the matter, and since you always get the combat tricks for feats you have if you have a stamina pool I didn't want to overload them now. I was trying to give Combat Tricks to all the abilities which didn't give a feat.
Quick Draw: yeah probably just getting rid of this line of abilities all together since they don't fit as well.
Trust me I've worked way harder on things that probably didn't need it lol, but I do feel there is potential in this line of thinking. The Ranger thing isn't a terrible idea, just kinda..bleh. It's just getting X feats at Y levels. Honestly you're correct in that the Fighter should have had these in the first place though, and if they had I might have a different opinion on the feel of the styles (I made the ranger rework prototype completely bow based just for this reason)
I think though I should say I really love to work on things, make new ideas be they good at first or not, and try to see if they improve. I prefer to see if the problem can be fixed instead of slapping other things that didn't workout on to it. It is a lot of work, but I think the final product will be worth it.
I will say however that while I don't like how they are handled either, I think the Psychic Warrior's Paths are a little closer to the feel I'm going for.
Einhander: Think about what an Einhander build is gonig to be...probably a dex-based finesse fighter with high AC, Crane Wing if you allow it, and/or the Aldorian Swordlord archetype.
And then we add in Unhindering Shield, and Combat Reflexes.
They aren't ever going to fill up their possible AoO's per round.
I'll spend a stamina point for a full BAB attack every time.
An extra handful of attacks over the course of a combat is consummately lethal. The stamina cap is not a barrier. If I get an extra six attacks on an enemy force over 3 rounds, they are dead.
Your Einhander ability literally single-handedly turns it into the strongest fighting style.
Einhander: Think about what an Einhander build is gonig to be...probably a dex-based finesse fighter with high AC, Crane Wing if you allow it, and/or the Aldorian Swordlord archetype.
And then we add in Unhindering Shield, and Combat Reflexes.
They aren't ever going to fill up their possible AoO's per round.
I'll spend a stamina point for a full BAB attack every time.
An extra handful of attacks over the course of a combat is consummately lethal. The stamina cap is not a barrier. If I get an extra six attacks on an enemy force over 3 rounds, they are dead.Your Einhander ability literally single-handedly turns it into the strongest fighting style.
I wouldn't entirely agree there, but I've also never heard of unhindering shield. I think the once per round at all is fine limit, maybe raise it to 2 stamina points as well. Not sure what else would fit with the theme of that ability off the top of my head.
As a comparison, 'opportune' Riposte, which allowed you an AoO once a round if your opponent missed you, was a 10th+ level ability in 3.5. More attacks kills stuff faster then anything else.
As a comparison, 'opportune' Riposte, which allowed you an AoO once a round if your opponent missed you, was a 10th+ level ability in 3.5. More attacks kills stuff faster then anything else.
Ah yes I remember that one. I always clocked it as a 5th-6th level ability at the highest, but I'm all for martial's having tons more power. I can replace the einhander ability and put it on the improved version, just unsure what to replace it with.
Would something like this be too strong as a mobility option?
Active Assault (Ex): An 8th level Fighter can flawlessly place herself where she is most needed in combat. As a swift action she may move half her base move speed. When she makes a full round attack, she may move this distance between each of her attacks.
Yes.
You just gave the fighter a 50% speed increase, and potentially a 400% increase if they are a hasted TWF'er. Swift+Normal move, or Swift +between 8 attacks. 150' tactical movement for a fighter? "I can swing my blades so fast and my feet just keep pace, so I move faster then sprinting in a straight line!' just feels wrong.
I made a Fleet Technique (upgraded feat) that amounted to 5 x Armor Training bonus as Fast Movement (armor training meant they could move at full speed in heavy armor). This ended up at a 50' move at level 16, which I thought was fine. Oh, and Running at 5x speed.
That bonus was also the distance they could take as a 5' step, quietly scaling with their armor training adn rewarding them for staying with the class.
Yes.
You just gave the fighter a 50% speed increase, and potentially a 350% increase if they are a hasted TWF'er. Swift+Normal move, or Swift +between 8 attacks.
I made a Fleet Technique (upgraded feat) that amounted to 5 x Armor Training bonus as Fast Movement (armor training meant they could move at full speed in heavy armor). This ended up at a 50' move at level 16, which I thought was fine. Oh, and Running at 5x speed.
That bonus was also the distance they could take as a 5' step, quietly scaling with their armor training adn rewarding them for staying with the class.
Figured. I liked the idea but felt it was too much, didn't think it would hurt to post the thought. I don't have much an issue with the 50% increase though since that was the point, but would somehow have to limit it with Haste and what not.
Thats kinda cool, probably would have made the fighter at least able to do something. Not sure how I'd like it to scale myself, but I do want them to have a mobility increase of some kind.
If you go back to Tome of 9 Swords, there's a couple options in the Tiger Claw school.
First, Increases all your jump distance by 10 feet. Stance. Includes vertical. Pop, up atop that wall. Leaping over enemies pretty easy.
Second one, allowed you to do a jump as a swift action. Don't remember if it's a stance or strike. But effectively gave you an extra movement option in a round, that slowly scaled, even if it was a standing jump.
Of course, there was a feat that allowed you to do a running jump from stand still, too...
If you go back to Tome of 9 Swords, there's a couple options in the Tiger Claw school.
First, Increases all your jump distance by 10 feet. Stance. Includes vertical. Pop, up atop that wall. Leaping over enemies pretty easy.
Second one, allowed you to do a jump as a swift action. Don't remember if it's a stance or strike. But effectively gave you an extra movement option in a round, that slowly scaled, even if it was a standing jump.
Of course, there was a feat that allowed you to do a running jump from stand still, too...
Yeah Tiger claw was always one of my favorite schools, though Setting Sun was always the one I loved the most. Tossing people around was so fun lol.
I'd love to just give the fighter maneuvers and just be a better warblade (because class features are important and it had a lot of dead levels). I know I want the fighter to be unique. As much as a barbarian or rogue or wizard. So I suppose that's why this is all overly complicated to work on and didn't keep most of the other abilities.
Well, most of the class abilities of the warblade were underwhelming...but at least they HAD some. The true reward of the class was getting new maneuvers and stances at every level. Y'know, like spellcasters.
And of course getting actual 9th level abilities. Weeeeee. 3x my +60 concentration check, taking 10, for damage with one blow, thank you...using a blade of grass.
Can you tell Diamond Mind was my favorite?
Well, most of the class abilities of the warblade were underwhelming...but at least they HAD some. The true reward of the class was getting new maneuvers and stances at every level. Y'know, like spellcasters.
And of course getting actual 9th level abilities. Weeeeee. 3x my +60 concentration check, taking 10, for damage with one blow, thank you...using a blade of grass.
Can you tell Diamond Mind was my favorite?
heh, I had an unarmed swordsage who was a master of Shadow Blade and Diamond Mind, probably one of the most fun characters I played at 10th level.
They were underwhelming though, and I had wished they got more meat to work with. It's a personal opinion, but I don't think spells or maneuvers should excuse the lack of meaningful class abilities (I'd rather nerf ALL spells and give martials just as many cool things to do, but I know that wouldn't necessarily work.)
Also, so it's known what I'm doing I'm working on a second draft with the information I've gained from the posts on here.
1- Removing the extra combat school abilities and instead adding them into the Prowess abilities. Allowing them to scale with fighter level and removing the bloat from the former version.
2- Adjusting Bravery to be functionally similar, but never remove shakened condition until later levels. The fighter can be scared, but he is more level headed being the idea. Allowing the fighter to grant adjacent allies the Bravery bonus for a round most likely as a higher level ability.
3- Probably going to add something like Weapon Training in. I dislike the ability and think it's boring, but some manner of more clear scaling would work better than some of the ideas I had. Also allows for AWT feats
4- Redoing Capstone to function more with Leadership themes, possibly also a "final" prowess like ability.
I wanted to ask by the way, could you go into more detail about how you handled the Leadership bonuses? It sounded really intriguing.
Leadership and Marshall went hand in hand.
First, Leadership is a Technique he could take at level 2. This is equivalent to the Squire feat from Knights of the Inner sea. He can have a warrior of his level -1, and he can spend the gold and time to train him as a Fighter of his level -1, or another PC class of his level -2, as normal.
This is equivalent to giving him a boon companion. The fighter will mirror his feats and style...he's effectively training a guy who knows what he knows, so they can coordinate well together, with some minor differences.
His Marshall morale bonus of +1 th/dmg or +1 ac/saves is doubled for his followers, including his cohort.
He adds his Bravery bonus and may add his Expertise bonus (great teacher and skilled fighter!) to his Leadership score.
===Freedom from the tyranny of a Charisma stat.
At 6th level, he can train his followers. Using the training rules, he takes half the time and so half the gold of other classes. He can increase the levels of his followers and/or change their class to Fighters or Rogues if they are commoners, warriors, experts or nobles. The 'extraordinary' followers he gets can be leveled up to at least 1/3rd his level, meaning they can reach 6th level and get followers of their own...who, at 18th level, are also counted as his followers.
he can make money training other people, too, and does so in half the time. Most fighters looking for non-combat duty are prized as training masters. He must have the Expertise Technique to do this for others, however. Maximum number of students is Bravery x Fighter level at one time.
At level 8, his Marshal bonus gives +1 Morale bonus th/dmg, saves and AC all the time, instead of offense OR defense. Alternatively, he can increase the move of his followers by 5', if he has the Fleet Technique, forgoing either offense or defense.
at 9th level, he gets discipline in training, applying Bravery to skill checks involving Int/Wis/Cha, Weapon Training to Str/Dex, and Armor to Con.
If he has Expertise, he also adds his Expertise bonus to all skill checks involving the arts of war and battle, ranging from strategy, to history, to strategy games, to crafting, to performing weapon drills. Expertise is about SKILL.
So, for instance, at 18th level with Expertise, he'd have a base +10 on Int checks to play chess, and can probably defeat an Int 30 archmage consistently.
At level 15, the Fleet effect is constant with offense and defense from his Marshall ability.
At level 16, he suffers no physical penalties from aging, although he does still get older.
At level 17, Lord and Commander: he gains a Competence bonus to contested skill checks against another party equal to the difference in BAB between them, as his skill at arms and desire for victory against opponents comes into play. He'll pretty much always beat the Archmage at chess at this level.
His Marshall bonuses are increased to +2, and the Fleet bonus to +10. FOr his personal followers, it is +3.
at level 18, A King AMong Men; All followers from Leadership are doubled, and he may have two cohorts. Followers of his followers are treated as his own followers for his Marshal Aura.
Adds Expertise to ALL Charisma checks, not just those dealing with war or combat, and may use his BAB instead of Charisma=based skill ranks, if need be, able to negotiate the social battlefield as cunningly as the real one.
--Massive personal following, two loyal agents of power, and a charismatic force of nature, even with no ranks in Diplomacy.
At level 20, part of the capstone is ceases physical aging. He can be killed, but won't die of natural causes.
And of course, he can take Techniques for an animal companion (if a dog, raptor, or steed, treated as a druid; treated as a ranger for anything else) or even a familiar if he wants to have a loyal crew around him.
If he takes a mundane animal, it can take advantage of his saving throw techniques, and armor and weapon training bonuses for its attacks. A Fighter on his warhorse companion is a terrifically dangerous foe, or his dog is REALLY dangerous!
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And that's how I handle leadership. Note he still has to take the Leadership Technique to actually get these bonuses. Furthermore, he gets the cohort at potentially level 2, and can slowly add followers if he lets the DM know he'd like to build up his base. At level 6, he gets the full effect of Leadership...but only if he wants ita nd the DM is okay with it. Otherwise, he's just got a really loyal cohort who is probably a near image of his at his side.
Leadership Stuff
That's pretty cool! I think your concepts aren't likely to fit within the chassis I have at the moment, but I know I enjoy your design quite a lot with that. I don't necessarily want the Leadership qualities to be THAT involved in mine since it's the secondary focus..however I would enjoy getting your thoughts on what I could do since obviously this is an area you've delved more into that myself.
Warlord and the former capstone were really the only thing in the leadership corner. I was thinking about giving a Squire at 7th, the Warlord ability at 11, some manner of bonus at 14, and a capstone at 19.
I think Warlord sits well as it is, maybe name it something like "Commander" or something instead. You think giving followers the fighters weapon training bonus type ability at 14 is too much or too little?
I do apologize for basically asking your ear off, but I don't actually have many people to discuss these things over anymore, and I appreciate any help I can get lol.