Familiars with Alter Self, how much do they keep?

[knight9910]

Okay, so I know this is an idea I'm sure a lot of spellcasters have had - to turn your familiar into a humanoid.

My method of doing this is a magic item like a necklace or something, with Alter Self as a Continuous/Use-Activated effect, so it semi-permanently transforms the familiar, and since it's a magical polymorph effect that doesn't change creature type he can still remain my familiar.

My question is, how much of his natural abilities would he keep? The spell lists which parts of the new form you get to take - swim speed, darkvision, etc. - but it neglects to list which of my OWN abilities I lose or keep.

Will my raven familiar keep his Fly speed if he turns into a humanoid? Will he keep his Bite attack? Will he keep the natural armor bonus from being a familiar? Does he still walk at 10' move speed, or 30' move speed as a medium humanoid?

For that matter, one of the villains in my upcoming campaign is going to use this with his rat familiar, to turn him into a ratfolk. Will that ratfolk still have his bite attack? His climb and swim speeds?

[Chess Pwn]

It is in the general polymorph that says you lose all abilities based on your creature.

So no fly for you raven turned human.
No bite.
No natural armor.
30' movespeed.

The rat turned ratfolk would have whatever qualities that ratfolk have and none of the rat ones.

[knight9910]

And I assume they still alter their ability scores based on size change?

So raven -> human would get +8 Str, -4 Dex, +2 Con for going from tiny to medium size?

[MeanMutton]

Here are the details: Transmutation

Polymorph Subschool wrote:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.

Also, the magic item you want is a Greater Hat of Disguise.

[Akkurscid]

Yeah you would lose your Creature Type features in favor of your new Creature Type many of them are the same so there is little change. Like changing from orc to human or vice versa the walk speed and number of arms and legs are the same... but changing from orc to fish you could die if there is no water for you to be in.

[MeanMutton]

knight9910 wrote:

And I assume they still alter their ability scores based on size change?

So raven -> human would get +8 Str, -4 Dex, +2 Con for going from tiny to medium size?

No -

"Polymorph Subschool wrote:

Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

You only get a +2 to your strength.

[Chess Pwn]

knight9910 wrote:

And I assume they still alter their ability scores based on size change?

So raven -> human would get +8 Str, -4 Dex, +2 Con for going from tiny to medium size?

You're looking at the wrong table. The table you're looking at is the monster creation table. It is only used for monster creation. The table you should look at that is the only table used during a game is the polymorph table. which going from tiny to medium is +4 str -2 dex before the change of the spell.

[MeanMutton]

Chess Pwn wrote:

knight9910 wrote:

And I assume they still alter their ability scores based on size change?

So raven -> human would get +8 Str, -4 Dex, +2 Con for going from tiny to medium size?

You're looking at the wrong table. The table you're looking at is the monster creation table. It is only used for monster creation. The table you should look at that is the only table used during a game is the polymorph table. which going from tiny to medium is +4 str -2 dex before the change of the spell.

That's a common mistake. Polymorph spells only alter attributes to the extent that the spell says it does.

[Beopere]

Most of the questions you asked are answered in the magic section under polymorph. They are the baseline rules that spells then add details to or deviate from (specifically noted in the spell). I suggest you give this a read!

[Chess Pwn]

MeanMutton wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

knight9910 wrote:

And I assume they still alter their ability scores based on size change?

So raven -> human would get +8 Str, -4 Dex, +2 Con for going from tiny to medium size?

You're looking at the wrong table. The table you're looking at is the monster creation table. It is only used for monster creation. The table you should look at that is the only table used during a game is the polymorph table. which going from tiny to medium is +4 str -2 dex before the change of the spell.

That's a common mistake. Polymorph spells only alter attributes to the extent that the spell says it does.

Which you have to make sure to see if the general polymorph rule that applies to every spell gets triggered. For if the target is smaller than small or larger than large you must adjust stats before applying the polymorph spell effect.

[Avoron]

MeanMutton wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

knight9910 wrote:

And I assume they still alter their ability scores based on size change?

So raven -> human would get +8 Str, -4 Dex, +2 Con for going from tiny to medium size?

You're looking at the wrong table. The table you're looking at is the monster creation table. It is only used for monster creation. The table you should look at that is the only table used during a game is the polymorph table. which going from tiny to medium is +4 str -2 dex before the change of the spell.

That's a common mistake. Polymorph spells only alter attributes to the extent that the spell says it does.

Actually, that's a common mistake. All polymorph spells account for size, as described in the table under the transmutation (polymorph) section of the Magic chapter of the Core Rulebook. Tiny creatures get +4 Strength and -2 Dex before any other modifiers, to account for the size change.

[Gauss]

MeanMutton, Chess Pwn is correct.

A tiny creature (such as most Familiars) having Alter Self cast upon it would have +4 Strength and -2 Dexterity modifiers (as per the Table on CRB p212) before the Alter Self spell's ability score modifiers of +2 Strength or +2 Dexterity kick in.

CRB p212 wrote:

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

[knight9910]

So raven -> human would only gain size changes from tiny to small, not tiny to medium. Got it.

[Gauss]

knight9910,

Just for clarity: they gain the modifiers listed in the table on CRB p212 which is different in places from the modifiers listed in Bestiary p296 Table 2-2 Size Changes.

Make sure you are using the correct table. :)

[Avoron]

Just as a note, when using the polymorph table, a change from tiny to small is equivalent to a change from tiny to medium, as small and medium themselves have no modifiers when changing between them.