Advice on building a Ninja


Advice


I'm building a Kitsune Ninja and looking for build advice. http://paizo.com/people/MizukiHikari

I know it's a mess because I'm in the middle of rebuilding it for a new game. We're starting at level 3, 20 point buy, 2 traits, 3000 gold. I'm also looking for advice on picking a weapon and armor plus other bits of equipment.

I know I want to grab Fox Shape. I'm also taking Vanishing Trick as her first ninja trick.


You should try vital strike. Coupled with sneak attack and a ready vanishing trick that would be fun. Get ranks in bluff, because if you don't want to spend ki you can distract people with bluff and then hide.the get extra ki will be a good choice if you can't think of something else. I would focus on dex/charisma. I wouldn't tank strength but you could ignore it because of your opportunistic strikes. Wisdom is important for will saves but you could grab the iron will feat. Intelligence isn't too imprudent as you have a lot of skill ranks. Of you're expecting to move a lot you should go into the mobility great chain. Just a word of warning. I've tried ninjas and two Stalin fighting, using really fancy feats, but it doesn't work. Your bab is too low.

Scarab Sages

What weapon are you looking to use? Are you planning to attack with your bite? Are you planning to be a fox most of the time (once you can take Fox Shape at 5th)?

Vital Strike is not a good feat for a ninja, unless you're building around a large damage die weapon, like a Great Sword or Greatclub. If you're planning to use your bite, it would only add 1d4. There are better options.

A Two-weapon Fighting Ninja can absolutely work, but it takes a heavy investment in making sure that you keep your to-hit high enough, and it takes a lot of feats.

If your ultimate goal is to take Fox Shape and stay a fox most of the time, then I would consider a Mouser Swashbuckler dip at some point. That way whenever you're in an opponent's square, which you'll need to be as a tiny fox in order to attack, you can still flank. I'm less clear on whether or not a bite would qualify for Swashbuckler's Finesse. Bites do B, P, and S damage, and natural attacks are light weapons, so I think it might technically qualify. I'd ask your GM. Anyway, that would save you a feat. You have a decent CHA already, so that would work well with the dip, too.

Anyway, there are lots of tricks to get the most out of ninja, many of which really help the effectiveness of the class. But it takes some work to keep up with the full-bag classes, since Ninja doesn't have any built in boosts to to-hit.

EDIT: Sorry, just saw you're looking for advice on a weapon. Wakizashi is a decent choice. You have proficiency, it's a light weapon, it can be finessed. If you decide to go Two-Weapon Fighting, you can wield two of them to maximize your weapon training talent (weapon focus). If you did take the Swashbuckler dip, the Wakizashi would work with Swashbuckler's Finesse.

For armor, it's tough to beat the Mithral Chain Shirt for a Ninja, because of the Max Dex Bonus.


Not planning to be a Fox all the time, just to be sneaky and scout around. Also partly to prank people by having a Fox show up where you'd least expect. (Mizuki is kind of a prankster.)
I don't know why I have so much trouble picking equipment, but it's the one thing I consistently get stuck on.

Sovereign Court

Are you thinking TWF? Ninjas can be pretty decent archers too. What does the rest of the group look like?

I will weigh in - take the Armor Expert trait. It'll let you wear a mithril breastplate without proficiency.


I'm kind of wanting to avoid TWF. Could be fun to go archer just as something different from what you usually see in Ninjas. Part of what I'm learning as I build, (since we're using background skills and I'm pretty much decided at least one of them is Perform (sing)) is she poses as a pretty human singer when she's not killing monsters.


An Elven Curved Blade with Power Attack can be a very powerful weapon for a dex-based character - two-handed Power Attack makes it dangerous even if strength isn't very high (about the same as the typical scimitar or rapier dex-to-damage approach), and if you eventually add the Agile property it becomes a uniquely deadly choice.

One thing about Rogues and Ninjas is that a little bit of multiclassing can go a long way towards improving their combat ability, and they don't suffer from multiclassing as much as many other classes do. For example, 3 levels of Weapon Master will provide 2 bonus feats and +3 to attack and damage from Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling. The Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat can even recover a sneak attack die lost by multiclassing.

Sovereign Court

Here's a pretty decent level 3 ninja archer -

Str 12
Dex 18
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14

Feats: Point-Blank Shot / Rapid-Shot (or Precise - your call)

Traits: Armor Expert / Whatever

Gear: +1 masterwork composite shortbow / wakasashi & backup daggers / buckler / chain shirt (never upgrade the shirt - save up for a mithril breastplate)

Shortbow: +7 1d6+2 (x3) OR +5/+5 1d6+2 (x3)

Wakasashi/Bite: +3 1d6+1 (18-20) / -2 1d4

AC: 18/19 (19 when not using the bow that turn and buckler applies)

So - not amazing, but with SA the ranged damage can be pretty respectable. I'd suggest rapid-shot at 3 & take Precise Shot at 5. Or take it at 4 if you're willing to give up a ninja talent for it.

Sovereign Court

BadBird wrote:
An Elven Curved Blade with Power Attack can be a very powerful weapon for a dex-based character - two-handed Power Attack makes it dangerous even if strength isn't very high (about the same as the typical scimitar or rapier dex-to-damage approach), and if you eventually add the Agile property it becomes a uniquely deadly choice.

It's okay in general - but ninjas already have accuracy issues, so the PA isn't worth it any round where you're getting SA.

Scarab Sages

I could see the archer ninja working. Archers are feat intensive as well, but at least they are effective from the start. You may want to find an opportunity to take Skill Focus (Stealth) for eventual sniping. I would go with Precise Shot first (which would be 3rd for a kitsune), then Rapid Shot at 5th. With 3/4 BAB and no good way to boost to-hit reliably, avoiding the -4 shooting into combat is better initially than the extra attack for a -2 penalty overall.

The Elven Curved blade is a great weapon, but playing a Kitsune you'd almost certainly have to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. For a class with martial weapons, playing an Elf would do it. A Half-elf could take it with an alternate racial trait. And Tengu would get it. For a ninja, it's probably not worth the feat.

Now, for an Unchained Rogue that gets 1 1/2 DEX to damage with a two-handed weapon, it becomes very good.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Do you know the rest of your party make-up yet?

Any big bruisers with x4 or x3 weapons? If you do decide to go with a pair of high threat range melee weapons, you might want to consider Butterfly's Sting. It lets you give your critical hits to allies. So if you have a pair of keen wakizashis, you'll be threatening crits on 15-20, and can then give that crit to the Power Attacking samurai with the x4 naginata for total destruction. AND you'll still get to do your sneak attack damage.

In 3.5, I played a 3.5 ninja archer and combining swift-action invisibility with mobile archery was really fun.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
BadBird wrote:
An Elven Curved Blade with Power Attack can be a very powerful weapon for a dex-based character - two-handed Power Attack makes it dangerous even if strength isn't very high (about the same as the typical scimitar or rapier dex-to-damage approach), and if you eventually add the Agile property it becomes a uniquely deadly choice.
It's okay in general - but ninjas already have accuracy issues, so the PA isn't worth it any round where you're getting SA.

Yeah, I should have mentioned that accuracy is at a premium in this case - though ironically when Sneak Attack is working, accuracy is typically much less of an issue anyhow. Furious Focus could actually be an appealing option depending on how a Ninja plans to operate. I end up just assuming some kind of extra minor multiclass combat boost now when I think of Rogue or Ninja, since I despise the idea of being completely marginal without Sneak Attack.

Sovereign Court

Ferious Thune wrote:
I could see the archer ninja working. Archers are feat intensive as well, but at least they are effective from the start. You may want to find an opportunity to take Skill Focus (Stealth) for eventual sniping. I would go with Precise Shot first (which would be 3rd for a kitsune), then Rapid Shot at 5th. With 3/4 BAB and no good way to boost to-hit reliably, avoiding the -4 shooting into combat is better initially than the extra attack for a -2 penalty overall.

It depends what ACs you're up against.

When hitting on a 9+ as your baseline, it's a toss-up. (Either 60% hit on a single shot or 30% hit on 2 shots.) At 10+ or worse, Precise Shot is better, while at 8+ or better Rapid Shot is better. So - from that alone Precise Shot probably has a slight edge.

However, any time your target isn't in melee, Precise Shot doesn't apply and Rapid Shot nearly doubles your damage. This is especially useful for ninjas since that first round you're likely to get SA with all attacks and your target is unlikely to be in melee.

So - I give the edge to Rapid Shot overall, but there are valid arguments for both of them.

Sovereign Court

Oh - if you want to go melee, and aren't taking the effective but feat intensive TWF, you might consider the Moonlight Stalker route.

The Moonlight Stalker feats are very feat intensive, but the first feat (which has Combat Expertise & Blind-fight as pre-reqs) will give you +2 to hit & damage whenever you have concealment (like when invisible). In addition, you would eventually get Moonlight Stalker Feint - which allows you to Feint as a swift action whenever you have concealment - combining very well with Greater Feint.

Basically - the Moonlight Stalker tree is very cool - but it'll eat your whole build.

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