I am working on a semi-hybrid class this will be a mixture of the alchemist and cleric class, and am looking for ideas or input on my concepts thus far. It's sort of a divine alchemist, but the idea is that she focuses more on the ritual aspect of spell casting instead of mixing chemicals. Her magic would be full of material, somatic, and verbal components. She would use blessed water, sacred oils, sanctified smoke. Of course, there would also be unholy versions of these. There would be less ability to raise a holy symbol, invoke the deity's name, and produce magical results. I'm not saying there are no standard action abilities, nor am I saying that their magic is all out of combat, but rather that she just isn''t as good at it as a cleric.
This idea started churning in my head after reading shiroi's akashic knight thread, erisacolyte-chaos jester''s gourmancer thread, and hector212121's bless water thread. Not neccessarily using their mechanics, but rather the concepts got me thinking.
My working title is Ritualist. The write-up is rough enough that I won't post it yet. Below are my ideas so far. Any input is appreciated.
Basic Alchemy
She is familiar with mundane alchemy, which grants a bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks to create alchemical items and the ability to identify potions using alchemy.
Bombs (with a different name)
These won't be alchemist fire bombs, but rather vials of holy (or unholy) water with scaling damage. Similar to the channel energy, it will infused with either positive or negative energy. They will be thrown weapons with splash damage. They deal damage to undead and evil outsider if holy, and to good outsiders if unholy. In addition, the water can be administered to a creature like a potion to heal damage - living creatures if holy, undead if unholy. You get the idea. Sort of like lay on hands except probably a full-round action. Since the alchemist gets twice as many bombs as the paladin has uses of LOH, a mitigating factor may need to be considered.
Discoveries (with a different name)
I might use some of the alchemist abilities, but I assume I will have to make a bunch of new ones. Some with empower the bombs. Just as the alchemist can change the damage type, the ritualist will be able to invest and be able to deal damage to more than just undead creatures. For example, maybe evil creatures would catch fire. Perhaps others can remove conditions like the paladin's mercies. Also, I'd like to extend the "ritual" aspect beyond just holy water, such as burning blessed herbs to create some kind of area effect.
Spells / Extracts
I'm on the fence about keeping with the potion theme, or just allowing regular 6-level spell casting. There would be a custom spell list of course. Just as a bard's spells always have a verbal component, so would the ritualist always have extra components. Access to spells could either be the entire spell list (like a cleric) or via a "spell book". These kinds of things will depend on just how good the spell list actually is.
Mutagen
I was never a big fan of this being an automatic ability of the alchemist, but if I keep it it will be a mutagen variant, granting minor abilities like those of the deity's outsider servants. Once the blessed water is drank or the herbs burned (the blood drawn), the ritualist takes aspects that make her more angelic or fiendish. The exact mechanical benefits would vary.
Should take a look at our Master Apothecary for ideas.
Basic Alchemy
She is familiar with mundane alchemy, which grants a bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks to create alchemical items and the ability to identify potions using alchemy.
I would add "holy water" and "unholy water" to the list of mundane concoctions he can make.
Bombs (with a different name)
These won't be alchemist fire bombs, but rather vials of holy (or unholy) water with scaling damage. Similar to the channel energy, it will infused with either positive or negative energy. They will be thrown weapons with splash damage. They deal damage to undead and evil outsider if holy, and to good outsiders if unholy. In addition, the water can be administered to a creature like a potion to heal damage - living creatures if holy, undead if unholy. You get the idea. Sort of like lay on hands except probably a full-round action. Since the alchemist gets twice as many bombs as the paladin has uses of LOH, a mitigating factor may need to be considered.
I would simply make this function like a channel energy bomb. Bombs target only one individual (plus splash damage to those within range). So, throw a "channel" bomb, it deals bomb damage as either positive or negative energy damage to the target (depending upon the alignment and deity of the ritualist). 5th level would deal 3d6 +/-damage to the target, and 3 damage to any within splash range. This takes care of the number of bombs vs. the number of channel energy per day issue. Then, as an alternative effect, one can break the bomb at a single ally's feet, healing the living or the undead.
Discoveries (with a different name)
I might use some of the alchemist abilities, but I assume I will have to make a bunch of new ones. Some with empower the bombs. Just as the alchemist can change the damage type, the ritualist will be able to invest and be able to deal damage to more than just undead creatures. For example, maybe evil creatures would catch fire. Perhaps others can remove conditions like the paladin's mercies. Also, I'd like to extend the "ritual" aspect beyond just holy water, such as burning blessed herbs to create some kind of area effect.
Create a Channel discovery that allows him to select various Channel Feats and apply them to his channel bombs. So, if he takes the Alignment Channel feat, his bombs now deal damage against the appropriate outsider. Could allow Control and Turn Undead also, but the effect would still be limited to a single undead. So, you'll need to come up with a list of the Channel feats you will allow. Also, you'll need to limit the choice of discoveries. Not all of them fit the concept.
You could also create a spell bomb discovery that creates certain spell effects that the alchemist doesn't have access to. Such as the consecrate, desecrate, hallow, and unhallow spell. Thus, a consecrate bomb, desecrate bomb, hallow bomb, unhallow bomb, etc. just make sure they're thematic to the hybrid.
Spells / Extracts
I'm on the fence about keeping with the potion theme, or just allowing regular 6-level spell casting. There would be a custom spell list of course. Just as a bard's spells always have a verbal component, so would the ritualist always have extra components. Access to spells could either be the entire spell list (like a cleric) or via a "spell book". These kinds of things will depend on just how good the spell list actually is.
Do both, and simply add certain appropriate spells from the cleric list. Even spells like raise dead, restoration, etc. could be adapted into extracts. While is doesn't say, I believe every extract (regardless of spell description) has no verbal component. Or at least it shouldn't.
You could allow the Ritualist to use the alchemist's spell progression, but allow him to choose what slot he prepares as spells or extracts each day (see the Alchemical Extracts ability for an example of this ability).
If not a direct extract/spell combo, go with spellcasting as the base ability, then create an extracts discovery, allowing him to do this.
You could also include the cleric's spontaneous casting ability, and go one of two ways. Simply have it function as normal, but allow spontaneous transformation of extracts into "cure" extracts, along with spontaneous "cure" spell casting of spells.
The other path is to have the spontaneous casting allow spontaneous switching between cure spells and cure extracts. So, spontaneously make a "cure" extract into a "cure" spell, and vice versa.
Mutagen
I was never a big fan of this being an automatic ability of the alchemist, but if I keep it it will be a mutagen variant, granting minor abilities like those of the deity's outsider servants. Once the blessed water is drank or the herbs burned (the blood drawn), the ritualist takes aspects that make her more angelic or fiendish. The exact mechanical benefits would vary.
You could have it grant the fiendish or celestial template for the mutagen's duration. Or create a new mutagen based on those templates with a Mutagen/Greater Mutagen/Grand Mutagen progression.
That's all I've got until I see a preliminary write-up.
ALCHEMY
I second lightbringer's idea about letting them create holy or unholy water using Craft (alchemy) or perhaps allow them to cast the holy water spells at-will as long as they have the material components.
BOMBS
This definitely needs the most work. I have some issues with your suggestion.
1. Positive/Negative energy normally doesn't heal or harm outsiders based on alignment. They normally only differentiate between living and undead creatures.
2. As is, the bomb aspect of the vials is extremely situational if it can only damage outsiders and undead.
I do like the idea of repurposing the vials as cure potions. A good direction might be making this the primary use of the ability, adjusting the economy appropriately, and then introducing Discoveries or a paladin mercy-like class feature to have the vials deal additional effects to its imbiber.
DISCOVERIES
Have you considered using domains as a design space? Maybe their discovery selection depends on what two domains they choose.
EXTRACTS
I think extracts might be the best choice. Extracts are really awesome for out-of-combat utility. The big strength of extracts is that it only takes a minute or so to prepare one. By leaving extracts open, this essentially makes alchemists spontaneous casters when out of combat and prepared casters when in combat. I think this fits your concept very well in encouraging the type of "ritual" casting.
MUTAGEN
Maybe they gain a buff against evil or good? If you use my domain discovery idea, you could have each domain offer a different effect for mutagens. I agree this feels like the oddity in the kit, but using incense and other chemicals to give someone divine insight is a common practice across religions. I think you can repurpose mutagen into that flavor.
As a genuine but amusing suggestion, I think there should be some way of alcohol/bizarre cocktail fueling divine spellcasting..
Lets be honest there has always been a strong link between the ritual ingesting of potent chemical liquids and the clergy!
Its in the Bible!!
Elghinn,
I will add wording to the ability allowing mundane concoction of holy/unholy water. It seems very fitting.
I will rewrite the "bomb" ability to be "channel energy in a bottle". It will be a step backwards before moving forward, but it's a good choice.
The "discovery" list was always going to include only a sampling of the existing ones. I will work some channel energy feats.
I would love to do a spell/hybrid combo, but am worried about how huge the class feature would be. Making it fully comprehensive would be quite an undertaking. We will see.
Those templates were the inspiration for the ability. I just looked them up and they are not as powerful as I remembered. Maybe I was confusing them with one of the 3.5 templates. So I will use these. In due time, I can make "improved" versions of them as well.
I see that you made your own version of this class. I hope mine can break some new ground and not tread on yours too much. Thank you for your feedback. It was exactly what I wanted: critique of concepts instead of the critique of class features.
Cycad,
The holy water idea will be done.
The "bombs" dealing damage to evil outsiders is a facet of holy water, which deals damage to undead and evil outsiders. It is also just a starting point. There will be ways to add to the list.
I think I will go with the "extract" style of casting, although rather than just "spells in a bottle" she will be able to "cast" them in a variety of ways, such as sprinkling water, burning herbs, drawing blood, reading from a book, etc. Perhaps some discoveries will tie into this. It will be a creative aspect I will address when I get to it.
Regarding your push for inclusion of domains, I have decided that there will be a "discovery" for each domain. The ritualist of course will only be able to choose those that belong to her deity. Each will do the following:
-Add a sampling of appropriate "spells" to her ritual book.
-Add variety to how the "bombs" work. For example, a good ritualist with the fire domain can use a bomb to deal fire damage to evil creatures. When a ritualist with the strength domain applies a "bomb" to an ally to heal it, it also gains a bonus on Strength checks for a short time. Obviously, balancing all of these will be a chore.
-Add a minor perk to what the "mutagen" does, in addition to to granting the celestial or fiendish template.
I will use alchemist as the chassis, then make it more cleric-y. So 6 level "casting", a "ritual book, something resembling bombs, no domains in the traditional sense (but they play a part). The mutagen (if included), will be very different.
I know my original post was kind of long, but the intent is all in there. I wasn't going for a monster hunter, and the bombs will be more like healing potions rather that explosives (I'm simplifying it though). However, a Simon Belmont type could be an archetype or even something that is able to be built with the options of the class. I'll keep it in mind.
You could have 1st mutagen apply buffs, 2nd buffs + celestial template and 3rd buffs+half celestial template. Swap for fiendish for evil versions.
Bomb discoveries should include a lingering effect where people standing in the square it lands receive some healing/harm
Elghinn,
I will add wording to the ability allowing mundane concoction of holy/unholy water. It seems very fitting.I will rewrite the "bomb" ability to be "channel energy in a bottle". It will be a step backwards before moving forward, but it's a good choice.
The "discovery" list was always going to include only a sampling of the existing ones. I will work some channel energy feats.
I would love to do a spell/hybrid combo, but am worried about how huge the class feature would be. Making it fully comprehensive would be quite an undertaking. We will see.
Those templates were the inspiration for the ability. I just looked them up and they are not as powerful as I remembered. Maybe I was confusing them with one of the 3.5 templates. So I will use these. In due time, I can make "improved" versions of them as well.
I see that you made your own version of this class. I hope mine can break some new ground and not tread on yours too much. Thank you for your feedback. It was exactly what I wanted: critique of concepts instead of the critique of class features.
I'm glad I was helpful, and don't worry about treading on our previous work. If it helps with your concept, use it, I always say.
I know my original post was kind of long, but the intent is all in there. I wasn't going for a monster hunter, and the bombs will be more like healing potions rather that explosives (I'm simplifying it though). However, a Simon Belmont type could be an archetype or even something that is able to be built with the options of the class. I'll keep it in mind.
What about the "mutagen" granting fast healing 1 to 3, depending on level. Greater mutagen could add fast healing 4 to 5, and grand mutagen could add regeneration on top of the fast healing?
I will have my first draft ready soon. The basic class features are all done, but still require revision. And I mean revisions for clarity, not balance. I'm still too immersed for that kind of objectivity. :) I haven't written the ritual (spell) list yet, not have I begun the creeds (discoveries) yet. That will be a large undertaking. BTW, the name "creed" is not set in stone. Any suggestions?
Anyhow, I hope to post the draft in a new thread in a week or less.
So my "bomb" feature is tentatively titled "vessel", though I would love to use something better than that. It would have two mains uses, which would depend on whether she has affinity for positive or negative energy.
The first use is where she administers the vessel to an ally, functioning similar to a paladin's lay on hands. Administering would be speaking aloud an incantation while sprinkling water, marking with oils, using incense, etc. If good, she can heal living creatures. If evil... Not fully decided yet. She can heal undead I guess, maybe evil outsiders.
The second use is where she lobs the vessel at an enemy, functioning similar to an alchemist's bomb. If good, she deals damage to creature affected by holy water. So, undead and evil outsiders. If evil... Again I'm not sure. Just being able to harm good outsiders seems really weak, but harming any living creature seems pretty strong.