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for a game I'm running I want to give the PCs a potion of Eagles Splendor that lasts as long as possible, while I can just houserule it, I like to stick to the games mechanics where possible.
The best I've figured out is a potion of Amplify Elixir with a potion of Extended Eagles Splendor as a chaser.
I was hoping someone can improve on this, any advice would be appreciated.
Just say the potion is CL 20. It increase the cost of the potion, but since you are just giving it to them, that doesn't matter. Until they go to sell it. Although there is a max spell level limit for potions, there isn't one for caster level.
I didn't think you could metamagic a potion. But I suppose in this case it would just be a 3rd level spell potion, so I guess that would work.
You can;
Magic Item Creation wrote: Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. link
I like potion of extended [spell] for a simple upgrade in duration. Also nice on wands.
For example, a cl 5th potion of extended eagles splendor would last 10 minutes and have a value of 750gp.
Thats what I've been thinking, as a chaser to a potion of Amplify Elixir.
I really would like it to go for at least 45 min
Hmm, would amplify elixir actually work with and extended potion? Amplify elixir says it would function as if the potion/elixir was extended , and I doubt that stacks.
But an extended potion with a CL 20 would last 40 minutes. So that seems close to your goal.
Amplify elixir doesn't work as a potion, it is a range: personal extract. The amplify extract works with an extended potion, it's not the same feat it's a different source. That said, it would use the standard x2 plus x2 = x3 multiplier mechanics in Pathfinder.
No, because Amplify Elixir Empowers a potions variables, numeric effects, extending the duration by half, while Extended Spell doubles its duration specifically.
The sum would be x2 plus x1.5 specifically, and not applicable to Paizo's doubling rules.
I dont mind making the Amplify Elixir an Infused Alchemist Extract if need be, but I can't find the rules limiting personal spells from potions - could someone link me?
_Ozy_ wrote: Amplify elixir doesn't work as a potion, it is a range: personal extract. The amplify extract works with an extended potion, it's not the same feat it's a different source. That said, it would use the standard x2 plus x2 = x3 multiplier mechanics in Pathfinder. Its an extract that duplicates the effects of the metamagic empower feat or the metamagic extended feat when applied to a potion/elixir. I suppose since the modifications are "untyped" they might stack in the way you suggest. But, in my own opinion, I doubt that the designers intended you to be able to stack those effects.
Diminuendo wrote: No, because Amplify Elixir Empowers a potions variables, numeric effects, extending the duration by half, while Extended Spell doubles its duration specifically.
The sum would be x2 plus x1.5 specifically, and not applicable to Paizo's doubling rules.
I dont mind making the Amplify Elixir an Infused Alchemist Extract if need be, but I can't find the rules limiting personal spells from potions - could someone link me?
Look in the magic item creation section, potions,
Creating Potions
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
I deleted everything not relevant.
They really should have put that rule in the brew potion section, its way to easy to miss otherwise. Frankly, almost every GM I have played with used personal range potions.
I don't know where you are getting the x1.5 multiplier for the stacking duration. Everything I have seen about stacking multipliers says to (x) + (y-1).
Joey Cote wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Amplify elixir doesn't work as a potion, it is a range: personal extract. The amplify extract works with an extended potion, it's not the same feat it's a different source. That said, it would use the standard x2 plus x2 = x3 multiplier mechanics in Pathfinder. Its an extract that duplicates the effects of the metamagic empower feat or the metamagic extended feat when applied to a potion/elixir. I suppose since the modifications are "untyped" they might stack in the way you suggest. But, in my own opinion, I doubt that the designers intended you to be able to stack those effects. Yeah, I can see that interpretation. Not sure if it comes up enough to worry about, or if it would be game breaking if it did, but given the wording of the extract I can understand a ruling saying it's an identical effect that doesn't stack.
OK, you seem to be confused;
Amplify Elixir Amplify Elixir wrote: Increase all variable numeric effects of the potion or elixir by half.
which would be the duration. This is not a metamagic effect. This is a spell effect which functions simularly to a metamagic effect. We are not using the extend metamagic on one spell twice.
Now the potion of Eagles Splendor has the Extended metamagic, which does double a spells duration.
Now, since a CL10 potion of Extended Eagles Splendor has a starting duration of 20 minutes, using this potion as a chaser to an Exract of Amplify Elixir the duration becomes 30 minutes.
Dude, keep reading.
Quote: If the potion or elixir does not have any variable numeric effects, it is instead treated as if it were extended (double the duration of the potion or elixir).
but the potion does have variable numeric effects, even then it explicitally states to double the duration of the potion
Diminuendo wrote: but the potion does have variable numeric effects, even then it explicitally states to double the duration of the potion 'variable numeric effect' means anything determined by a die roll. For example, cure light wounds 1d8+X healing.
Yeah, a fixed +4 is not a variable numeric effect. The extract tells you to double the potion 'as if' it were affected by the extend metamagic feat.
The debate is whether this means that you couldn't stack this with an actual extended potion. I can see it either way. I don't think it's a big deal, so I probably would allow it, though using Pathfinder multiplication math for a total of x3.
the duration of the potion changes depending on caster level; that sounds pretty variable to me.
Diminuendo wrote: the duration of the potion changes depending on caster level; that sounds pretty variable to me. No, that's not what it means. The variable is part of the spell effect, such as causing 2d6 damage, or summoning 1d4 creatures. The caster dependent duration is not a variable spell effect. However the damage it does, or the number of creatures it summons, that is a variable spell effect, assuming you roll a dice to determine it.
Look at the empower feat:
Quote: Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
That is the Empowered Metamagic feats effect, not Amplify Elixirs
*sigh*
Quote: For the duration of this extract, any potion or elixir you consume is treated as if it were empowered. Increase all variable numeric effects of the potion or elixir by half. It says empowered, it uses the same language as the empowered feat, level dependent duration is not a variable numeric effect.
I'm not really sure how much clearer it can be. According to your reading, the 'double duration, extended duration' of amplify extract would actually never apply. Does that make sense to you?
Your last two sentences doesn't make sense to me, you're telling me my own reading means x, but you're not explaing why it means x.
You have also failed to estabilsh why duration doesn't count as a variable effect, when it is a value that changes depending on caster level. It might not be a random variable effect, but amplfy elixir doesn't specifically call for a random variable effect.
I'm saying if that you really mean that duration per level is a 'variable', then the wording of the 2nd part of amplify elixir:
Quote: For the duration of this extract, any potion or elixir you consume is treated as if it were empowered. Increase all variable numeric effects of the potion or elixir by half. If the potion or elixir does not have any variable numeric effects, it is instead treated as if it were extended (double the duration of the potion or elixir). Would literally never occur.
But hey, as far as I know, you're the only person who doesn't believe it, so I'm not going to spend much of my time trying to convince you if you're dead set against it.
Btw, does this mean that you think the Empower Spell feat, which has the same wording, ALSO increases the duration by 50% in addition to the other variable effects? So, an empowered False Life not only gives you more HP, but it lasts longer too?
It is a little bit of a term of art, understood through context, but 'variable spell effect' doesn't really mean that the spell is never any different or that things that 'vary' never effect it.
Variable spell effect really means it has random die rolls as part of the effect.
As an example, if a 5th level wizard casts cat's grace, it will always have the same effect. It doesn't vary from casting to casting. (When the wizard becomes level 6, the duration will change, but 'level' during play is more a constant, it changes but not from casting to casting only over time and accrual of experience.) If our 5th level wizard casts fireball though, it will be different each casting. Sometimes it will do 5 points of damage, sometimes it will do 30 points of damage. It has a variable effect, even when the same wizard at the same level is casting the spell.
Thank you Dave for explaining that Paizo means dice rolls by "variable" instead of stamping your feet screaming "YOUR WRONG!!!" I can see a pattern in Paizos language now that I know what I'm looking for.
I don't think Ozy knows the English definition of the word "variable," only Paizos.
Dude, I have a PhD in physics, I know what variables are. I also know that some words have specific meaning in Pathfinder, and I explained to you not only what the extract meant, but demonstrated that if you interpreted it your way both the Empower feat and the Amplify Elixir extract became nonsensical.
I'll repeat what I said above:
Quote: No, that's not what it means. The variable is part of the spell effect, such as causing 2d6 damage, or summoning 1d4 creatures. The caster dependent duration is not a variable spell effect. However the damage it does, or the number of creatures it summons, that is a variable spell effect, assuming you roll a dice to determine it. Did you somehow miss that the first time?
You were correct then, but you never explained it. You said "this counts, this doesn't" and expected me to take your word as gospel
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