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I'm considering the subject build concept for a Kingmaker game I shall shortly be participating in.
The background idea is that the character is a failed Swordlord (he refused the Swordlord Pact, and besides he's better with a rapier).
But I feel like the Swashbuckler tops out at levels 5-7 in terms of really good class features, and I like the concept of a smart *and* charismatic swordsperson.
I've got 25 point buy, but I haven't got much further than deciding to be Human so I can have Fencing Grace online at level 1...
Anyway, the question I'd like advice on: am I better just sticking with Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, or is prestiging into Duelist a viable option?
Any advice with regards to playing a Swashbuckler, a Duelist, or a character in Kingmaker is also welcome.
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I recommend the Swashigator- 1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/ Emp. Investigator X
or
1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/Vivisectionist Alchemist X
Tons of Skills, utility, and buffs. You can easily accomplish a +10 to Dex by level 5. Which Translates well into your Parry + Riposte. The investigator will have more skills and is literally one of the King of Skills class. The Alchemist combo will have better combat abilities marginally. Tho the STR builds tend to be better damage wise the Dex builds are not bad at all and always do skills better than the STR counterpart.
Swashbuckler tops out at level 5. It really is a great dip class but a very poor solo class.
Prestiging into Duelist doesn't really add much if anything to your character, so going into something else would add more options to your character.
5 levels max of swash and then go something else, if you want interesting. Sticking with swash though does give you a +1 damage every level. Taking 1 level of investigator would give you inspiration and extra uses of it, might be enough to make an interesting character.
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I'll put in another note for a Swash being a great dip but a weak class as a whole.
It depends how you want to go. Going into Magus can work. Some Paladin archetypes work especially well with it, and having Cha helps both.
Heck - going into Daring Champion Cavalier might work, though some of the abilities are redundant.
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Prestiging into Duelist doesn't really add much if anything to your character, so going into something else would add more options to your character.
5 levels max of swash and then go something else, if you want interesting. Sticking with swash though does give you a +1 damage every level. Taking 1 level of investigator would give you inspiration and extra uses of it, might be enough to make an interesting character.
My original thought was that, since I was investing points into Int for Inspired Blade, I could also benefit from the Duelist ability to add Int to AC. But yeah, plenty of other stuff uses Int, and an Investigator dip is tempting...
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I recommend the Swashigator- 1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/ Emp. Investigator X
or
1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/Vivisectionist Alchemist XTons of Skills, utility, and buffs. You can easily accomplish a +10 to Dex by level 5. Which Translates well into your Parry + Riposte. The investigator will have more skills and is literally one of the King of Skills class. The Alchemist combo will have better combat abilities marginally. Tho the STR builds tend to be better damage wise the Dex builds are not bad at all and always do skills better than the STR counterpart.
Swashbuckler tops out at level 5. It really is a great dip class but a very poor solo class.
I've played a Swashtigator before, and had a blast until I was poisoned to death. Might try the Vivisectionist though.
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I'll put in another note for a Swash being a great dip but a weak class as a whole.
It depends how you want to go. Going into Magus can work. Some Paladin archetypes work especially well with it, and having Cha helps both.
Heck - going into Daring Champion Cavalier might work, though some of the abilities are redundant.
Now that you mention it, a Paladin 2/Swashbuckler 5/something else X multiclass could be really cool. Pity Charmed Life and Divine Grace don't stack (?) any more...
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I've played a Swashtigator before, and had a blast until I was poisoned to death. Might try the Vivisectionist though.I recommend the Swashigator- 1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/ Emp. Investigator X
or
1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/Vivisectionist Alchemist XTons of Skills, utility, and buffs. You can easily accomplish a +10 to Dex by level 5. Which Translates well into your Parry + Riposte. The investigator will have more skills and is literally one of the King of Skills class. The Alchemist combo will have better combat abilities marginally. Tho the STR builds tend to be better damage wise the Dex builds are not bad at all and always do skills better than the STR counterpart.
Swashbuckler tops out at level 5. It really is a great dip class but a very poor solo class.
Yeah Fortitude saves is the Swashigator's weakness. I circumvented that weakness with Extra Traits- Fate's Favored+ Luckstone, Great Fortitude, and +1 Fortitude Trait. I then bought a Plague Rat's Belt adding +2 con and 3/day reroll on certain fort saves. Using Heroism and A cloak all my saves were pretty fat.
The Vivisectionist is the stronger of the 2 combat wise tho. You could do a LOT of work with Tumor Familiar picking up a Familiar that adds +2 to a Save. Grab protector Archetype and you just greatly increased your surviviblity. Not only did that 1 discover shore up your weak save by +2 (much like Iron Will/Great Fortitude) but it also effectively gives you more HP. Add in A. Barrier spell and sending it to your Fast healing 5 Tumor you have a good recovery rate as well.
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if you wanted to go a little off beat, what about going Sorceror with the Sage bloodline...it is based if Int. Just put a feat into arcane armor training to overcome the penalty for casting(I have a feeling you'll be using light armor anyway, so penalties should be minimized). Might not be optimal, but different.
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I'd go into Ustalavic Duelist fighter. AWT opens some fun options, especially if you go Focus Weapon to make Leipdtstadt thrust better.
You're right! I'd forgotten about that archetype. Ustalavic Duelist Fighter 9/Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 11 seems like the right mix for that combo. Seems to take a while to come online, though - anyone know what level Kingmaker goes to?
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if you wanted to go a little off beat, what about going Sorceror with the Sage bloodline...it is based if Int. Just put a feat into arcane armor training to overcome the penalty for casting(I have a feeling you'll be using light armor anyway, so penalties should be minimized). Might not be optimal, but different.
Maybe Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 5/Sage Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 9?
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if you wanted to go a little off beat, what about going Sorceror with the Sage bloodline...it is based if Int. Just put a feat into arcane armor training to overcome the penalty for casting(I have a feeling you'll be using light armor anyway, so penalties should be minimized). Might not be optimal, but different.
Magus Would perform better but your suggestion did lead me to the option of:
Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight
Using Mithral Armors you will have a 0% Arcane Spell Failure. you "could" go elvan style if you wanted but I feel fencing grace just fits so much better and is less feat intensive. 5 levels of transmutation wizard can snag you +2 to a physical stat and gives your +1 Transmutation spell each level. You could easily be into Eldritch knight by 7th level.
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I've played a Swashtigator before, and had a blast until I was poisoned to death. Might try the Vivisectionist though.I recommend the Swashigator- 1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/ Emp. Investigator X
or
1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/Vivisectionist Alchemist XTons of Skills, utility, and buffs. You can easily accomplish a +10 to Dex by level 5. Which Translates well into your Parry + Riposte. The investigator will have more skills and is literally one of the King of Skills class. The Alchemist combo will have better combat abilities marginally. Tho the STR builds tend to be better damage wise the Dex builds are not bad at all and always do skills better than the STR counterpart.
Swashbuckler tops out at level 5. It really is a great dip class but a very poor solo class.
Yeah Fortitude saves is the Swashigator's weakness. I circumvented that weakness with Extra Traits- Fate's Favored+ Luckstone, Great Fortitude, and +1 Fortitude Trait. I then bought a Plague Rat's Belt adding +2 con and 3/day reroll on certain fort saves. Using Heroism and A cloak all my saves were pretty fat.
The Vivisectionist is the stronger of the 2 combat wise tho. You could do a LOT of work with Tumor Familiar picking up a Familiar that adds +2 to a Save. Grab protector Archetype and you just greatly increased your surviviblity. Not only did that 1 discover shore up your weak save by +2 (much like Iron Will/Great Fortitude) but it also effectively gives you more HP. Add in A. Barrier spell and sending it to your Fast healing 5 Tumor you have a good recovery rate as well.
I'd been hoping the Poison Resistance bonus + Heroism + using Inspiration on Fort saves would save (someone call the pun robot) me, but I ran out of Inspiration and was buried under an avalanche of Shadow Essence poisoned Daggers...
The Tumour Familiar is great mechanically, I just can't get over the ick factor of the flavour.
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I've played a Swashtigator before, and had a blast until I was poisoned to death. Might try the Vivisectionist though.I recommend the Swashigator- 1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/ Emp. Investigator X
or
1 Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/Vivisectionist Alchemist XTons of Skills, utility, and buffs. You can easily accomplish a +10 to Dex by level 5. Which Translates well into your Parry + Riposte. The investigator will have more skills and is literally one of the King of Skills class. The Alchemist combo will have better combat abilities marginally. Tho the STR builds tend to be better damage wise the Dex builds are not bad at all and always do skills better than the STR counterpart.
Swashbuckler tops out at level 5. It really is a great dip class but a very poor solo class.
Yeah Fortitude saves is the Swashigator's weakness. I circumvented that weakness with Extra Traits- Fate's Favored+ Luckstone, Great Fortitude, and +1 Fortitude Trait. I then bought a Plague Rat's Belt adding +2 con and 3/day reroll on certain fort saves. Using Heroism and A cloak all my saves were pretty fat.
The Vivisectionist is the stronger of the 2 combat wise tho. You could do a LOT of work with Tumor Familiar picking up a Familiar that adds +2 to a Save. Grab protector Archetype and you just greatly increased your surviviblity. Not only did that 1 discover shore up your weak save by +2 (much like Iron Will/Great Fortitude) but it also effectively gives you more HP. Add in A. Barrier spell and sending it to your Fast healing 5 Tumor you have a good recovery rate as well.
I'd been hoping the Poison Resistance bonus + Heroism + using Inspiration on Fort saves would save (someone call the pun robot) me, but I ran out of Inspiration and was buried under an avalanche of Shadow Essence poisoned Daggers...
The Tumour Familiar is great mechanically, I just can't get over the ick factor of the...
It can appear as small as a mole. Much like a Marilyn Monroe Beauty mole. You could even have it show on your back (so while clothed its not even seen). Very little Ick has to be involved.
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the main reason i was suggesting the sorc is for the spontaneous casting...if the swash runs into something they can't handle, they might have a spell to counteract/defeat/prevent whatever...just not a fan of the premeditated spells with a swashbuckler..they live by the seat of the pants doctrine i feel....
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if you wanted to go a little off beat, what about going Sorceror with the Sage bloodline...it is based if Int. Just put a feat into arcane armor training to overcome the penalty for casting(I have a feeling you'll be using light armor anyway, so penalties should be minimized). Might not be optimal, but different.Magus Would perform better but your suggestion did lead me to the option of:
Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight
Using Mithral Armors you will have a 0% Arcane Spell Failure. you "could" go elvan style if you wanted but I feel fencing grace just fits so much better and is less feat intensive. 5 levels of transmutation wizard can snag you +2 to a physical stat and gives your +1 Transmutation spell each level. You could easily be into Eldritch knight by 7th level.
Maybe delay the Eldritch Knight progression, be martial for the early levels (IBSwash 5) then multiclass when the lack of casting utility starts hurting (Transmuter 5) and then start combining it for however many of the last ten levels we play?
The Eldritch Knight capstone seems pretty good with the 5th level free Improved Critical, too.
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if you wanted to go a little off beat, what about going Sorceror with the Sage bloodline...it is based if Int. Just put a feat into arcane armor training to overcome the penalty for casting(I have a feeling you'll be using light armor anyway, so penalties should be minimized). Might not be optimal, but different.Magus Would perform better but your suggestion did lead me to the option of:
Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight
Using Mithral Armors you will have a 0% Arcane Spell Failure. you "could" go elvan style if you wanted but I feel fencing grace just fits so much better and is less feat intensive. 5 levels of transmutation wizard can snag you +2 to a physical stat and gives your +1 Transmutation spell each level. You could easily be into Eldritch knight by 7th level.
Maybe delay the Eldritch Knight progression, be martial for the early levels (IBSwash 5) then multiclass when the lack of casting utility starts hurting (Transmuter 5) and then start combining it for however many of the last ten levels we play?
The Eldritch Knight capstone seems pretty good with the 5th level free Improved Critical, too.
Sadly you would need to be level 20 to reach that capstone as you plan it.
Most campaigns never see that.
Keen edge is also a nice spell, Keen is a cheap enchant as well.
With only 1 IBSwash/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10 is 16 Levels and I know a Handful of APs that reach 16th level. You also would only be down -2 CL instead of -6 CL. You would also reach 7th level spells much quicker. 7th level spells will get you much much further than going 4 more levels in IB Swash and capping out at 5th level spells. Being able to throw down Empowered or Maxmized Fireballs with Spell critical seems pretty sweet to me....especially since you will qualify for Dimensional Agility Line of feats much sooner. You could be teleporting behind someone and spell critical them before they can even react.
the main reason i was suggesting the sorc is for the spontaneous casting...if the swash runs into something they can't handle, they might have a spell to counteract/defeat/prevent whatever...just not a fan of the premeditated spells with a swashbuckler..they live by the seat of the pants doctrine i feel....
Typically yes...but Prepared casters have the benefit of preparing for known challenges and Inspired blade turns everything into INT which to me is much less the Charismatic lifestyle but a more methodical life style using wit and intelligence to outsmart his foes.
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if you wanted to go a little off beat, what about going Sorceror with the Sage bloodline...it is based if Int. Just put a feat into arcane armor training to overcome the penalty for casting(I have a feeling you'll be using light armor anyway, so penalties should be minimized). Might not be optimal, but different.Magus Would perform better but your suggestion did lead me to the option of:
Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight
Using Mithral Armors you will have a 0% Arcane Spell Failure. you "could" go elvan style if you wanted but I feel fencing grace just fits so much better and is less feat intensive. 5 levels of transmutation wizard can snag you +2 to a physical stat and gives your +1 Transmutation spell each level. You could easily be into Eldritch knight by 7th level.
Maybe delay the Eldritch Knight progression, be martial for the early levels (IBSwash 5) then multiclass when the lack of casting utility starts hurting (Transmuter 5) and then start combining it for however many of the last ten levels we play?
The Eldritch Knight capstone seems pretty good with the 5th level free Improved Critical, too.
Sadly you would need to be level 20 to reach that capstone as you plan it.
Most campaigns never see that.
Keen edge is also a nice spell, Keen is a cheap enchant as well.
With only 1 IBSwash/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10 is 16 Levels and I know a Handful of APs that reach 16th level. You also would only be down -2 CL instead of -6 CL. You would also reach 7th level spells much quicker. 7th level spells will get you much much further than going 4 more levels in IB Swash and capping out at 5th level spells. Being able to throw down Empowered or Maxmized Fireballs with Spell critical seems pretty sweet to me....especially since you will qualify for Dimensional Agility Line of feats much sooner. You could be teleporting behind someone and spell critical them before they can even...
Keen Edge is even a Transmutation spell. Aye, that sounds pretty good to me - I can use my spells to make up for the lost BAB, and the 25 point buy allows me to invest more in Con to be less squishy.
Hmmm:
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 10 with Dual Talent Human?
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Looks pretty good to me. I recommend toughness as well to help shore up on HP.
Mixed with spells like False life, defending bone, mirror image you can actually be just as tanky as most frontliners.
I'll probably just take the FCB HP for the Wizard levels - we're using average rounded up for HP per HD, so that'll be 12+35+80 + False Life for 127+(d10+10 THP) at level 16? Versus 148 HP from 16 levels of Swashbuckler that doesn't look too bad.
Feats after level one could be tricky, though.
Do note that the Transmuter ability score bonus won't stack with any other enhancement bonus. It's still useful for increasing a secondary physical stat a bit, but it won't help your most important physical ability score.
There are actually a ton of options for the arcane side of Eldritch Knight that do quite interesting things. As an example, a Strength Patron Witch can use Divine Favor and Divine Power, can pick up non-level-based Hexes like Fly and Cauldron, and can cast Ill Omen and eventually Quickened Ill Omen, which is a pretty incredible way to spend a swift action. Witch doesn't get Mirror Image, but they can use Barkskin or Ironskin. I've actually been looking at a Hex Channeler Witch/ Sohei Monk/ Eldritch Knight who worships Sarenrae and grabs Slashing Grace: Scimitar and Crusader's Flurry: Scimitar.
One thing about any character with a Panache Pool - the item Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf is seriously great.