What happens if you take the sleepy drawback and then later acquire a ring of sustenance or restful armor?
Effect: You take a –2 penalty on saving throws against sleep effects.
My question is basically about the "flavor text" from sleepy. You have to sleep 12 hours. So would these items/enchantments cancel that 12 out and make it a 2?
If I took the drawback and then got some restful armor, would I only need 2 hours of rest despite my drawback because my armor negates that part magically? Obviously the -2 to saving throws against sleep effects would still be there regardless.
Cameron
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know off-hand if there are rules about taking a drawback and then "fixing" it later. I assume for now that there aren't any, so this is probably up to each individual GM.
For me, I see no problem with this idea. After all, you took a drawback to gain an advantage (an extra trait). That's no different than someone who dumps CHA to get more STR. Later, that guy could increase his CHA with a magic item, effectively overcoming his limitation, but he still gets to keep his STR. So I assume you can overcome your limitation and still keep your trait.
That said, using a magic item to raise your CHA from 8 to 10 is still not as much benefit as raising your CHA from 10 to 12, so the fact remains that this CHA-dumping character still has some limitation (his CHA is lower than a non-dumping character with the same magic item).
Therefore, I would say that there should be some limitation to Sleepy, even if you get the sustenance or restful.
In that vein, I would rule that both Sustenance and Restful reduce your needed sleep to 1/4 normal (8 hours to 2 hours) and apply the same multiplication to a Sleepy character (12 hours to 3 hours).
So in my game, you'd need to rest 3 hours each night if you had one of those items.
...
In that vein, I would rule that both Sustenance and Restful reduce your needed sleep to 1/4 normal (8 hours to 2 hours) and apply the same multiplication to a Sleepy character (12 hours to 3 hours).
So in my game, you'd need to rest 3 hours each night if you had one of those items.
I think this is a great idea. I'd be completely fine with that.
Realistically, the character still keeps the mechanic behind the "penalty" anyway, the -2 to saves against sleep effect. So I agree completely with your example of the CHA dump and getting it back.This brings up another question though. What if you took this drawback and then took Awakened From Stasis? Mechanically it's a not a very good trade, you're basically taking a -2 penalty against sleep to gain the ability to only need 2 hours of sleep .
Would this be valid though? Because it functions the same as restful armor, but it's a trait.
I would assume it functions as I described in my previous post.
But...
I would probably not allow a player to do this. Essentially you take Sleepy to get an extra trait then take Awakened for the net effect being that you still take two good traits and you trade an almost harmless penalty for hardly ever needing to sleep. It almost feels like an exploit.
Since this basically boils down to "My character needs extra sleep" and "My character needs less sleep", I would tell the player that these two effects will just negate each other completely for no net effect.
But, by RAW, I see no reason you can't do this.
I would assume it functions as I described in my previous post.
But...
I would probably not allow a player to do this. Essentially you take Sleepy to get an extra trait then take Awakened for the net effect being that you still take two good traits and you trade an almost harmless penalty for hardly ever needing to sleep. It almost feels like an exploit.
Since this basically boils down to "My character needs extra sleep" and "My character needs less sleep", I would tell the player that these two effects will just negate each other completely for no net effect.
But, by RAW, I see no reason you can't do this.
Yeah I see the exploit part of it for sure. It looked valid by RAW though. It's not much different than the restful armor aside from the gold cost and the fact that it doesn't really jive well roleplaying wise.
Thank you for the help though
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Another way you could interpret the combo is that Sleepy characters need 4 extra hours, so 6 total with the ring or armor. This is a little harsher than DM_Blake's version, obviously.
It's not Pathfinder RAW, but a principle I pull in from other systems is that a hindrance that doesn't hinder doesn't count. If a drawback does effectively nothing due to other aspects of the PC's build, then it doesn't count as a drawback. Imagine an enchantment focused sorcerer taking Zealous, for example. If the PC never plans to make attack rolls the drawback does nothing. RAW legal, but a bit shady IMO. Luckily for me none of the players in my group would be cool with this either.
Well, what I see is
With sleepy it says:
"You must sleep or rest for at least 12 hours each night to get the benefits of a full night's rest."
The ring of sustanance says
"its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep."
While restuful says:
"reduce the amount of uninterrupted sleep or rest she needs from 8 hours to 2 hours"
These Items seems to imply that they work with creatures who normally sleep 8 hours. Unfortunately it seems you picked a drawback that does not fall under "normal amount of hours" needed to sleep.
If I was a generous GM, I would rule that sleeping 2 hours is the same as sleeping 8 hours. so you would need 4 more to not wake up fatigued.
If I was not generous, I would say that these items are meant for normal people, and their magical affects do not affect you because you dont sleep the normal 8 hours that normal things need.
Also, Taking a look at the drawback "Spooked" it even has a a bit of additional info that you are immune to fear, that you still have to roll to avoid becoming shaken.
I would feel that they did not add these to other drawbacks, because it was implied that drawbacks.... ARE DRAWBACKS.
The magical item is not a permanent removal of the Drawback. The item can be stolen or dispelled or magically suppressed, causing the Drawback to reassert itself. The Drawback isn't gone, it is just temporarily being avoided.
What he said.
It's not Pathfinder RAW, but a principle I pull in from other systems is that a hindrance that doesn't hinder doesn't count. If a drawback does effectively nothing due to other aspects of the PC's build, then it doesn't count as a drawback.
I 100% disagree with this though. The player still has the handicap. It limits their abilities in some way. For example if a person is born with a Foul Brand on their hands, then they probably aren't going to try to specialize in disable device or sleight of hand since they were literally born bad at it. Or if the brand was on their face then I doubt they'd try to be diplomatic as they grew up.
Then they wouldn't use the skills that are penalized because they found ways to overcome their drawbacks. They definitely still have them though regardless. So it's still a drawback and the player should be repaid for taking it regardless of if it affects then everyday or not.With sleepy though, the 12 hours is more of a fluff description (I'd still enforce it though) and the real penalty is the -2 to saves against sleep effects. So even if they overcome their need for sleep, they still are penalized from their drawback.