Our group is in the early stages of prepping for playing a drunken party in Jade Regent, and our last player has been giving some thought to playing a Swashbuckler (currently we have a drunken master, a drunken rager, a devout pilgrim cleric of Cayden Cailean, and an alcohol-themed alchemist.)
This little gem of a fighting style caught my attention, and I'm sure is something that will push our last player over the edge into wanting to play a Swashbuckler.
Blade and Tankard Style
Your god is famous for wading into battle with a tankard in his off-hand.
Optional Replacement: A chaotic good fighter or swashbuckler who worships such a god can replace proficiency with shields or bucklers with the following initial benefit.
Initial Benefit(s): You can wield a tankard (or mug) as a weapon, treating it in all ways as a light mace appropriate for your size. If you engage in two-weapon fighting with a rapier or light weapon in one hand and a tankard in the other, you can drink a potion or other liquid from the tankard or attempt to toss liquid from the tankard as a dirty trick combat maneuver (such as to blind a foe) in place of attacking with it. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for attempting a dirty trick maneuver with a tankard.
Advanced Prerequisite(s): Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +10.
Optional Replacement: A chaotic good fighter or swashbuckler of at least 10th level who worships such a god can replace a bonus feat or deed with the following advanced benefit, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
Advanced Benefit(s): You can refill your tankard with a beverage, potion, or other liquid from a bottle or vial as a swift action. You gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to perform dirty tricks with tankards. The effects of such a dirty trick lasts for 1d4 rounds + 1 round for every 5 points by which the result of your combat maneuver check exceeds the target's CMD; a standard action is required for the target to remove this penalty.
My question is, what are some good ways to optimize use of this amazing fighting style?
It seems as though Swashbucklers are often reliant on keeping their off-hand empty and are heavily discouraged from two-weapon fighting (which I understand are for DPR reasons.)
As the DM, would it be crazy to lift that restriction to not apply when the off-hand attack action is being used for non-damaging attacks? The most "clever" thing I can think of would be to get a defending tankard to use with the dirty trick to get a little AC bump, but that's still inferior to just using a magic buckler, especially since it's also applying a penalty to MH attack rolls and is requiring a feat for that penalty to not be crippling.
I'm already comfortable with allowing it to work with Slashing Grace, since Slashing Grace calls out exceptions to the "nothing in the off-hand" rule, including bucklers which the tankard replaces.
Would it be insane to lift the restriction *entirely* with the tankard, since it wouldn't qualify for Precise Strike or Slashing Grace bonus damage *anyway* (and would therefor be a very minor DPR bump when being used to attack and deal damage?)
Thanks for your thoughts. He's a newer player (compared to the rest of the group) and I want him to be able to get a lot of enjoyment from his character.
To start, I agree that allowing the tankard wherever a buckler would be allowed is a sensible house rule. The "nothing in the offhand" clauses pretty much exist to prevent two-weapon-fighting with dex-to-damage for balance reasons (probably mostly based on fear that dex would become the UrAttribute) but that bucklers are spelled out as an exception is based on a misunderstanding of how bucklers work. In practice, holding a mug is going to restrict the use of that hand less than holding a buckler so I would say that's fine (the style does call out Swashbucklers explicitly, so they ought to be able to use it without losing all their class features.)
As it stands, the Swashbuckler wouldn't be able to TWF with a blade and a buckler (something that makes the rondelero duelist pretty awkward) without losing most of their class features, so I'm not sure how much mileage you would get out of the style though. It probably wouldn't be too unbalancing if you just said "okay, you can TWF with your blade and your buckler/tankard, but you won't get precise strike damage and you can't get dex to damage with slashing grace." It's not as though the swashbuckler is game-destroyingly powerful (it's mostly a class that appeals because it's fun and iconic).
It honestly probably isn't that unbalancing to let the player take a -2 on their 1d6 + DexMod+Level (15-20, x2) attack to make a 1d6+StrMod (20, x2) attack when they probably have a very high dex and a low strength.. Most of the mileage you'd get out of the style is in making dirty tricks, and dirty tricks are so thematically appropriate for the swashbuckler that I'd be inclined to allow it (plus this is a concretely realized way to allow a swashbuckler to finesse dirty tricks that blind without taking agile manevers.)
It honestly probably isn't that unbalancing to let the player take a -2 on their 1d6 + DexMod+Level (15-20, x2) attack to make a 1d6+StrMod (20, x2) attack when they probably have a very high dex and a low strength.. Most of the mileage you'd get out of the style is in making dirty tricks, and dirty tricks are so thematically appropriate for the swashbuckler that I'd be inclined to allow it (plus this is a concretely realized way to allow a swashbuckler to finesse dirty tricks that blind without taking agile manevers.)
This is precisely what I've been leaning towards - I think I'll houserule an exception inside the Blade & Tankard style to allow my swashbuckler to apply his Dex (either from Slashing or Fencing Grace) plus his Precise Strike damage while wielding a tankard, even if he uses it in two-weapon fighting.
It seems like the "end game" for this build would be to work towards Improved TWF and Dirty Trick Master at 11 with a glove of storing or a Cailean Fighting Tankard to allow an attack routine of:
MH, OH (dirty trick), 2nd MH, 2nd OH (dirty trick to worsen condition), 3rd MH.
Which seems great, frankly, but also not game-breaking.
Early on, an off-hand no-damage blinding attack is pretty great, too, but none of this concerns me that I shouldn't allow Grace and Precise Strike to apply while using the style.
I don't think that the "nerf" on Slashing Grace actually affects the Swashbuckler that much. The FAQ basically lays out the circumstances in which the feat was intended to work when it was written, which is more or less how the Swashbuckler was envisioned to fight: with a finesseable weapon in one hand, nothing substantive for offense or defense in the off-hand, and with a normal or full-round melee attack action.
That you can't use it with spell combat, flurry of blows, or natural attack doesn't really affect the Swashbuckler-as-intended. In retrospect, since the FAQ was designed to take slashing grace away from the Magus, the Monk, etc. it probably would have been better to just build it into the Swashbuckler as a class feature.
PossibleCabbage is right; knowing this player, he'll be happy with Grace as it is, and wouldn't even be aware it had ever been used in cheesy builds or been reworded.
I'm pretty impressed by blade and Tankard myself. I'm about 100% percent sure that Rogues get the most out of it as the blinded condition which can be granted with the tankard perfectly sets up Sneak Attack.
Due to the slow BAB progression of Rogue you will prolly have to invest into more Dirty Trick related feats especially those which make it harder to remove the blinded condition.
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Since Cayden Cailean's favored weapon is a rapier, you could see if your swashbuckler wants to use once of those as his main hand weapon. Then Fencing Grace over Slashing Grace gives him Dex to damage without any awkward TWF house rules. Still shuts off Precise Strike by RAW, though.
Purely fluff note, but there is a Cayden Cailean miniature that is him with an out-thrust rapier and a tankard in the other hand. Matches very well.
Yep. When I unboxed my case, his figure was broken off at the ankles. :(
This is precisely what I've been leaning towards - I think I'll houserule an exception inside the Blade & Tankard style to allow my swashbuckler to apply his Dex (either from Slashing or Fencing Grace) plus his Precise Strike damage while wielding a tankard, even if he uses it in two-weapon fighting.
It honestly probably isn't that unbalancing to let the player take a -2 on their 1d6 + DexMod+Level (15-20, x2) attack to make a 1d6+StrMod (20, x2) attack when they probably have a very high dex and a low strength.. Most of the mileage you'd get out of the style is in making dirty tricks, and dirty tricks are so thematically appropriate for the swashbuckler that I'd be inclined to allow it (plus this is a concretely realized way to allow a swashbuckler to finesse dirty tricks that blind without taking agile manevers.)
That last bit...seems like it misunderstands the general standing of the mechanics a bit.
I don't view precise strike as a true damage booster. It serves, instead, to cover a gap. The gap between using a weapon in 1 hand and using a weapon 2 handed. It covers the loss of power attack strength bonus. Oh, sure, at higher levels, it might oustrip that role a bit...but for most of your career, it seems like it is mostly playing catch up. It means you can do decent damage with light weapons/dex build without going TWF, because not everyone wants that style.
So while I can understand allowing the dex stuff with the tankard...allowing the precise strike while doing TWF is like saying "I'll allow you to get two handed damage, even while doing TWF". That is an entire class feature in an of itself (it is called 'flurry of blows'). So just be aware of what you are house ruling in there. With the current precise strike, you can get something vaguely akin to the way double weapons world (ie- 2 handed damage for standard action, 2 two damage fro full attacks) which already puts you ahead of the game compared to most TWF classes.
I just treat the Tankard the same way the Rondelero Swashbucklers Rondelero Flexibility ability does a buckler, but it does not count as a piercing weapon.
On this topic, does anyone know how to take Blade and Tankard in HeroLab swapping Shield proficentcys for the feat?